Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Zohar » Tue Apr 15, 2014 5:28 pm UTC

Just saw ep 2. My suspicions (just show spoilers - haven't read the books):
Spoiler:
I wouldn't be surprised if it's the Tyrells who did it. What's-her-name was successfully married to Joffrey (I was just so happy he's dead!), so wouldn't she be queen? I suppose if she gets pregnant quickly enough she might claim it's his child, as well, but that's a long shot. Also I was certain it was actually the pie that was poisoned, not the wine. It could still be that, actually, if no one else got to it quickly enough to have some.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby SlyReaper » Tue Apr 15, 2014 5:49 pm UTC

Zohar wrote:Just saw ep 2. My suspicions (just show spoilers - haven't read the books):
Spoiler:
I wouldn't be surprised if it's the Tyrells who did it. What's-her-name was successfully married to Joffrey (I was just so happy he's dead!), so wouldn't she be queen? I suppose if she gets pregnant quickly enough she might claim it's his child, as well, but that's a long shot. Also I was certain it was actually the pie that was poisoned, not the wine. It could still be that, actually, if no one else got to it quickly enough to have some.

Spoiler:
As I mentioned earlier, I also thought Joffles' death would make Maggie the queen. But Joffles had a brother, so succession would pass to him. Cercei would most likely resume her role as regent (or regentess?) because I'm pretty sure "mum" outranks "sister-in-law". So, unless there's something I'm missing, the Tyrells don't stand to profit so much from this.

That said, I still think Old Lady Tyrell might have done it. There's just something in her manner that makes me think it's exactly the kind of thing she'd do, a kind of ruthless cunning covered by a veil of charisma. She knew full well what a monster JoJo was, and may have calculated that the kingdom and her family's place within it was untenable with such an unstable person as king. In the choas which will now ensue, she might find some way to manoeuvre her family into a position of greater power.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby eSOANEM » Tue Apr 15, 2014 5:50 pm UTC

Spoiler:
They hadn't had the bedding yet so any child Margaery had, if she claimed it to be Joff's would be a bastard and so have a weaker claim than Tommen.

Also, as stated earlier, Margaery and Cersei both have good claims to the regency now (Margaery's claim not being based on sister-in-law but based on "I was queen consort, I can do what I like".
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Adam H » Tue Apr 15, 2014 6:32 pm UTC

Question about a difference between the books and the show...
Spoiler:
Does Theon tell Bolton that Bran and Rickon are alive? I kind of remember it being a pretty big plot point that he did not - like he was still able to resist just a little. Or am I misremembering? Or maybe it's not clear and we don't know whether the Boltons know.

I was about to post this in the book thread but then I thought that maybe this is a spoiler for what comes next in the books!
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby gmalivuk » Tue Apr 15, 2014 6:35 pm UTC

SlyReaper wrote:
Spoiler:
As I mentioned earlier, I also thought Joffles' death would make Maggie the queen. But Joffles had a brother, so succession would pass to him. Cercei would most likely resume her role as regent (or regentess?) because I'm pretty sure "mum" outranks "sister-in-law". So, unless there's something I'm missing, the Tyrells don't stand to profit so much from this.
Spoiler:
Joffrey has a brother and the Lannisters and the Tyrells still want to forge stronger bonds, the Lannisters for financial reasons and the Tyrells for political ones.

Last I checked, Tommem was unbetrothed, and Margaery was still (officially) a virgin, with neither her marriage to Renly nor to Joffrey consummated. So I don't know why either house wouldn't set her up to marry Tommem next.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Ixtellor » Wed Apr 16, 2014 5:32 pm UTC

I think I might have asked this a few years ago, but..


Do any of the series book readers feel like your missing out on the TV series because you know to much?

The red wedding was probably the greatest event in TV history (for nerds) and it seems like anyone who read the book totally missed out on the emotional nuke it wrought.

And the last show.... was it 'ho hum' for the book readers?

Seems to me it would be like watching an en epic superbowl and already knowing the outcome.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Dark567 » Wed Apr 16, 2014 5:49 pm UTC

Ixtellor wrote:I think I might have asked this a few years ago, but..


Do any of the series book readers feel like your missing out on the TV series because you know to much?

The red wedding was probably the greatest event in TV history (for nerds) and it seems like anyone who read the book totally missed out on the emotional nuke it wrought.

And the last show.... was it 'ho hum' for the book readers?

Seems to me it would be like watching an en epic superbowl and already knowing the outcome.

Eh. Its like seeing something you love come to life.

Also the show has hinted at things that aren't hinted at in the books(most notable the destroyed Red Keep covered in snow), so there are still surprises even for someone who has read the books.

Additional sometimes they change things to make it really shocking.

Book and show spoilers, but technically the show has already passed this point so this shouldn't be spoiling anyone who's kept up with the show
Spoiler:
Robb, Talisa and the Red Wedding changed substantially. In the books Robb married a woman with a different name, its never indicated she is pregnant and didn't take her to the Red Wedding, so she survived. So once Talisa becomes pregnant, bookreaders were surprised because we've all been speculating for years on whether or not Robb's wife is pregnant. So I thought there was a good chance his wife in the books was also pregnant. But, then Talisa goes to the Red Wedding, also surprising. Then of course unlike in the books(where just Robb and Cat die), Robb's wife and unborn child die too. So still pretty shocking. Where in the books his wife is sitting around the westerlands somewhere. Still possibly pregnant... but probably not.

Anyway. To me the books and show are very complementary and eventually to get the entire story, you almost need to go through both.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Lazar » Wed Apr 16, 2014 5:54 pm UTC

Dark567 wrote:Also the show has hinted at things that aren't hinted at in the books(most notable the destroyed Red Keep covered in snow), so there are still surprises even for someone who has read the books.

There's also the possibility that the show may overtake the books. And if that happens, even if they use secret story notes from GRRM, the differences between the show and the (future) books would probably increase.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby pseudoidiot » Wed Apr 16, 2014 6:07 pm UTC

Ixtellor wrote:The red wedding was probably the greatest event in TV history (for nerds) and it seems like anyone who read the book totally missed out on the emotional nuke it wrought
In some ways it was even more emotional.

First, I read it in the book. And that's a HUGE moment. I feel confident in saying that reading that for the first time was just as emotional as it was for a non-reader when they saw it on screen.

Then on top of that, even though I know what's coming, I don't know what it's going to look like. So, yes, I'm entirely expecting it, but seeing it on screen is an entirely different experience and really adds even more oomph to what it was like having already read it.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Zcorp » Wed Apr 16, 2014 9:22 pm UTC

Ixtellor wrote:Do any of the series book readers feel like your missing out on the TV series because you know to much?
Why would we? We got to experience it in a medium that allows for greater depth of emotional engagement not less of it.

The red wedding was probably the greatest event in TV history (for nerds) and it seems like anyone who read the book totally missed out on the emotional nuke it wrought.
I'm sorry you haven't had an 'emotional nuke' through a book, the most powerful ones in my life have all come from them. TV or Film just can't meet the emotional connection that a book can create. The people who have read the books spent, on average, 54 hours with the characters before the red wedding compared to the tv audiences 30. Nearly twice as long in time and the greater intimacy you gain from reading their thoughts and having more details of their 'lives' and the world in which they live.

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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby eSOANEM » Wed Apr 16, 2014 11:03 pm UTC

Ixtellor wrote:I think I might have asked this a few years ago, but..


Do any of the series book readers feel like your missing out on the TV series because you know to much?

The red wedding was probably the greatest event in TV history (for nerds) and it seems like anyone who read the book totally missed out on the emotional nuke it wrought.

And the last show.... was it 'ho hum' for the book readers?

Seems to me it would be like watching an en epic superbowl and already knowing the outcome.


Eh, I watch GoT with non-book readers so I get a massive kick out of seeing their reactions and knowing when to start watching people. Also we get that emotional nuke reading the book rather than watching the show, it's still there.

And of course, we get to spot all the foreshadowing and know what thinks are genuine foreshadowing and what things are red herrings. It's great. Also we get to watch the non-book readers guess wildly and get things completely wrong or frustratingly close to accurate.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Adacore » Wed Apr 16, 2014 11:24 pm UTC

Yeah, watching the red wedding with a group of mostly non-book-readers was one of the most fun television viewing experiences I've ever had. I think I mentioned earlier in the thread, but one of my non-book-reading friends asked 'why don't we have more parties like this?' when the wedding was in full flow, and me and the other book-reader there glanced at each other and spent the next minute struggling not to crack up. But then I suppose I often enjoy watching other people experience things like games and TV shows just as much as I enjoy experiencing them myself.

Plus, I can act all smug when non-book-readers are speculating about what's going to happen next.

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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Felstaff » Wed Apr 16, 2014 11:56 pm UTC

Adacore wrote:I can act all smug when non-book-readers are speculating about what's going to happen next.

I wish I could, but I have a terrible memory, and now that it's been several years since I read a Stormy Swords, I can't actually remember anything that happens (weddings aside). A lot of the Red Viper/Dornewall stuff slipped me by, so I'm looking forward to the show reminding me what I already read.

I literally cannot recall, at this moment in time, a single event in A Feast for Crows. Maybe the 'walk of shame', but that might have been Linedance with Dragons. I'll just wait for the next series. I don't want to re-read the books. Though seeing quotes from the books pasted around here and there, I can't help but feel that they are better-written than I initially thought.

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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby eSOANEM » Thu Apr 17, 2014 9:49 am UTC

The writing improves a lot throughout the series, GoT is quite badly written at times (also he had a habit of referring to characters' "butts" which always broke my suspension of disbelief, once he changed to ass/arse/rump etc. it sounded much better) but aDwD is at worst competently written and at many points well written.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby gmalivuk » Thu Apr 17, 2014 12:17 pm UTC

But "butt" and "rump" entered English at around the same time.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby LaserGuy » Thu Apr 17, 2014 12:50 pm UTC

And an ass was a donkey until the 1800s.

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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Felstaff » Thu Apr 17, 2014 3:51 pm UTC

eSOANEM wrote:The writing improves a lot throughout the series, GoT is quite badly written at times (also he had a habit of referring to characters' "butts" which always broke my suspension of disbelief, once he changed to ass/arse/rump etc. it sounded much better) but aDwD is at worst competently written and at many points well written.

Maybe the language improves, but the story definitely begins to drag. One of the most overused phrases I saw was "he's as useless as nipples on a breastplate". I must have seen it used at least four times. I guess it's meant to be read as a Westerosi cliché, hence why it's overused, but it just makes for annoying writing. Also I just noticed the quote I mentioned above uses another GRRMism - "if truth be told". That phrase is used (at least) 12 times in A Game of Thrones and 19 times in A Dance With Dragons. Even for books this size, I'd consider that considerable overuse, if truth be told.
eSOANEM wrote:"butts"

I noticed the switch, too. I think it's because American English has wholeheartedly claimed the word 'butt' to refer to the buttocks from their British cousins, so that it's hard not to read it in a 'Simpsons character' voice, and it can be incongruous as everyone knows the world only ever used to speak in an English accent. Unless, of course, you are a.) a bad guy whose idea of wickedness is on a par with Breschau of Livonia, at which point you have a Russian accent b.) a hapless male idiot, in which case you have a cod Oriental or drawling Hispanic accent (or you talk only in Ebonics), or c.) an exotic swarthy female beauty, in which case you sound like either a breathy seductive geisha who giggles a lot, or Penelope Cruz.

Anyway, 'butts' are referred to almost exclusively as cigarette ends o'er here. I believe it's common for children to use butt over arse when describing the derrière (again more through US cultural influence via television)
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Dark567 » Thu Apr 17, 2014 4:02 pm UTC

Felstaff wrote:Maybe the language improves, but the story definitely begins to drag.
I have disagree. The later books are really underrated and there is a lot of good stuff. Might be less interesting because its no longer the war of the five kings and instead things like banking crises, battles between church and state and cultural disruption. But to me those things are interesting and in many ways more unique to the fantasy genre than generic wars and cross country adventures.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Ixtellor » Thu Apr 17, 2014 6:05 pm UTC

Zcorp wrote:Why would we? We got to experience it in a medium that allows for greater depth of emotional engagement not less of it.


Its the speed.
Spoiler:
In the TV version you see the armor underneath the clothing and while your mind is processing what you just saw --- BAM people are getting stabbed in the stomach.


In the book, you see that stuff coming from pages or paragraphs away. So you have the time to process what you are about to read.

Also, right or wrong I am confident visual media produces vastly more emotional responses than books in human beings.

As a typical white male who was told not to cry in boyhood, no book can make me cry. I say this as someone who reads everyday, can't possible recall all the books I have read because its too vast, with a wife who is a highly emotional English professor. (She cries or laughs a lot while reading).
It might be 'nurture', but I am confident I am not in the minority --- books do not elicit strong emotional responses from me.

I'm sorry you haven't had an 'emotional nuke' through a book, the most powerful ones in my life have all come from them. TV or Film just can't meet the emotional connection that a book can create. The people who have read the books spent, on average, 54 hours with the characters before the red wedding compared to the tv audiences 30. Nearly twice as long in time and the greater intimacy you gain from reading their thoughts and having more details of their 'lives' and the world in which they live.


Music, lighting, camera angles, fine acting, direction, and editing are all done in a way to condition an emotional response. So while I can empathize in the book there is a team of experts shooting those scenes in such a way to maximize emotion reactions. Also, don't apologize, it makes you sound condescending.

So while it may not be fashionable, or cool, or demonstrate a lack of EQ, or be pedestrian, I don't recall seeing the number one video on earth being 'reactions from reading about the red wedding'. So I don't think I am alone in believing that was an EPIC TV event while it would highly raise an eyebrow from the TV is an idiot box crowd... hence my question.

All that being said, I still like your response and it explains how you can watch what you have already read and not feel like your missing out... your basically wired differently... plus the logical reasoning of the time spent with the characters ... so I really am not attacking you, just defending the video medium and the reasons why. Again, I thought you gave a great response from your perspective.

Edit: Someone should write an essay where you capture the response of readers who just read the 'red wedding' scene.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby gmalivuk » Thu Apr 17, 2014 6:19 pm UTC

The only way the reaction video comparison could give informative results is if as many people got together to read the books aloud to each other as get together to watch the show together.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby eSOANEM » Thu Apr 17, 2014 6:23 pm UTC

Ixtellor wrote:
Zcorp wrote:Why would we? We got to experience it in a medium that allows for greater depth of emotional engagement not less of it.


Its the speed.
Spoiler:
In the TV version you see the armor underneath the clothing and while your mind is processing what you just saw --- BAM people are getting stabbed in the stomach.


In the book, you see that stuff coming from pages or paragraphs away. So you have the time to process what you are about to read.

Also, right or wrong I am confident visual media produces vastly more emotional responses than books in human beings.

As a typical white male who was told not to cry in boyhood, no book can make me cry. I say this as someone who reads everyday, can't possible recall all the books I have read because its too vast, with a wife who is a highly emotional English professor. (She cries or laughs a lot while reading).
It might be 'nurture', but I am confident I am not in the minority --- books do not elicit strong emotional responses from me.


Eh, it plays out slightly differently in the books. I'm pretty sure the armour under clothes thing either isn't mentioned or only comes about later. Most of the foreshadowing is subtler and stuff that afterwards you look back on and go "oh, that's why they did that". For me at least the whole thing came across as much more chaotic as well.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Dark567 » Thu Apr 17, 2014 6:30 pm UTC

The thing about books, is you can slow down to process what you're reading or speed up to rush through it. Visual mediums don't let you do that. The pace is dictated to you.

Not sure what that says about emotional impact, but I think it has relevance whether a consumer of media can set their own pace through something. I for one do think the visual medium has more emotional impact. As someone who read all the books between season 1 and season 2, the climax of the first season was much more emotionally impactful than the climax of the third. Not just because it was a visual medium, but also because its more innovative to do things like have false protagonists on TV than it is in books.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby gmalivuk » Thu Apr 17, 2014 6:35 pm UTC

Spoilered RW discussion (yes, still spoiler your shit, even if you can't imagine anyone who still doesn't know about it):
Spoiler:
I saw it coming in the books, in the sense that Frey was obviously going to do something. I was not expecting *everyone* to die, and kept waiting for the murders to stop or be fought back against or something, but it didn't surprise me as much when it started as reaction videos suggest was the case for viewers.


Dark567 wrote:The thing about books, is you can slow down to process what you're reading or speed up to rush through it. Visual mediums don't let you do that. The pace is dictated to you.

Not sure what that says about emotional impact, but I think it has relevance whether a consumer of media can set their own pace through something.
Absolutely, which is why I think a better comparison would be audiobook reactions if people listened to those in a group.

I like audio books quite a lot but there are genres I'll no longer listen to, because I need the ability to speed up (i.e. skim through) or slow down during certain scenes.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby LaserGuy » Thu Apr 17, 2014 7:48 pm UTC

Ixtellor wrote:In the book, you see that stuff coming from pages or paragraphs away. So you have the time to process what you are about to read.


Not really. There's enough foreshadowing that you could probably guess that something was going to happen, and it seems pretty tense for awhile, but it all happens quite suddenly in the book--not entirely different from the show, IMHO. Also, I don't know about you, but normally when I read, at least, when a scene is tense and you aren't sure what's going to happen, the tendency is to read faster, not to slow down and mentally prepare yourself for a massacre of a bunch of major characters.

Ixtellor wrote:As a typical white male who was told not to cry in boyhood, no book can make me cry. I say this as someone who reads everyday, can't possible recall all the books I have read because its too vast, with a wife who is a highly emotional English professor. (She cries or laughs a lot while reading).
It might be 'nurture', but I am confident I am not in the minority --- books do not elicit strong emotional responses from me.


Probably depends on the person. I generally find books more immersive than television.

So while it may not be fashionable, or cool, or demonstrate a lack of EQ, or be pedestrian, I don't recall seeing the number one video on earth being 'reactions from reading about the red wedding'. So I don't think I am alone in believing that was an EPIC TV event while it would highly raise an eyebrow from the TV is an idiot box crowd... hence my question.


That might have had something to do with the fact that not everyone reads the book at the same time, while large numbers of people can watch the show at more or less the same time. Also, the book was published in 2000, five years before YouTube was founded, so, no, you wouldn't have seen that video. While it's purely anecdotal, I know a few people who basically stopped reading the series immediately after reading the RW, and one person who literally threw the book out her window because she was so upset.

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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby NoodleIncident » Fri Apr 18, 2014 2:01 am UTC

Ixtellor wrote:Its the speed.

Spoiler:
I read the books at the pace of about a book a week. By the time I got to the red wedding, I was reading so quickly that for a good while I literally could not comprehend what had happened.

It was the word "arrow" that caught my attention. Arrows. Hitting Robb. What? I came to a complete halt, tried to figure out what was going on again, backed up a little. The Greatjon flips the table for cover again... and yep, Robb is shot again. I was in a lot of denial the first time I read it, and kind of blocked out the actual details.

Then, I have to finish the chapter. I have to stay inside Catelyn's head, as she pleads for her son's life, for anyone's life, as she mourns all those already dead in her family. As she's forced to hold a witless innocent hostage. As she's forced to kill him. As they grab hold of her, and she forgets once more that her husband died long ago:
No, don’t, don’t cut my hair, Ned loves my hair. Then the steel was at her throat, and its bite was red and cold.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Diemo » Fri Apr 18, 2014 7:29 pm UTC

I know of quite a few people who threw the book away. People who literally couldn't read the book again for a week.

In general terms, this has happened to me reading GRR. Martin's books. Where I would think about it a week later, ask if I wanted to read the book, get mad again, and have to stop myself thinking about it.

So yeah, the books can definitely have the same emotional reaction as the TV show does.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby johnie104 » Sun Apr 20, 2014 12:06 pm UTC

NoodleIncident wrote:
Ixtellor wrote:Its the speed.

Spoiler:
Then, I have to finish the chapter. I have to stay inside Catelyn's head, as she pleads for her son's life, for anyone's life, as she mourns all those already dead in her family. As she's forced to hold a witless innocent hostage. As she's forced to kill him. As they grab hold of her, and she forgets once more that her husband died long ago:
No, don’t, don’t cut my hair, Ned loves my hair. Then the steel was at her throat, and its bite was red and cold.


Yeah, so even just rereading that last sentence gave me goosebumps.
The major difference between the RW in the book and in the series, is that you see it coming more in the series: The music changes, the lighting changes, you see the ominous doors closing. It was much more shocking for me in the book.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby freezeblade » Mon Apr 21, 2014 4:27 pm UTC

spoiler for book-ness-ish thoughts and possible show spoilers on newest episode
Spoiler:
I was really shocked by how much they age-bumped some of the characters. I noticed it before, but not as drastically as when Tywin was talking to Tomiman (sp?) in the great sept's morgue. he looked at least 15 there, maybe 14. I remember in the books him being something like 8 or 7. It's going to be interesting to see how they treat this age-bump later, as in the books i feel they treat him very much like a child in the writing going forward, writing him more like a lost puppy dog than a future-king
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby gmalivuk » Mon Apr 21, 2014 4:37 pm UTC

Yeah, the age-bump can get tricky especially in later seasons (since the series takes a longer time than the corresponding span described by the books, iirc). Especially when they already started out making some of them older so as not to have children in some of these pretty heavy roles.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby LaserGuy » Mon Apr 21, 2014 4:50 pm UTC

I think he's aged up roughly appropriately compared to the other children. Tommen is the same age as Bran.

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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Vahir » Mon Apr 21, 2014 4:51 pm UTC

I'm shocked and angered about the whole

Spoiler:
Jaime raping Cersei thing. It's completely out of character and Jaime's character developement, and smells like a bad fanfic; I mean, what is this?
Last edited by Vahir on Mon Apr 21, 2014 4:54 pm UTC, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby gmalivuk » Mon Apr 21, 2014 4:53 pm UTC

The following is an episode spoiler as well as a rape trigger warning spoiler.
Spoiler:
Yeah, I'd say that was probably the single worst decision that has been made about a departure from the book. Aren't we eventually supposed to sympathize with Jaime as he redeems himself? Weren't we already supposed to start doing that at this point? Unless they just go ahead and keep his character dark and unlikeable for the rest of the series, they're basically going to tell fans they should grow to love Jaime again after his doing this.

blue-author (on tumblr) wrote:Before you tell us that it’s not rape because in the fictional world of the TV show Cersei knew it was done out of love and passion, I invite you to consider how many people in this world might have endured a rape and then had our rapist say, “You know I love you, right?”

Consider how many—in that moment—might have nodded or said yes, or even just not said anything.

I invite you to think about what you’re saying to us when you tell us that Jaime couldn’t have raped Cersei if she knows he loves her.

Before you tell us that it’s not rape because Cersei was probably saying no for some other reason—because she felt she had to, because it was the right thing to do, I invite you to stop and consider what happens in the real world when people—men, mostly—appoint themselves the arbiters of what’s a real no and what we really mean when we say it. I invite you to stop and think about how often NOs are dissected and pulled apart even after the fact in order to excuse the attacks against us, in order to turn rape into complicated sex.

Before you say that it will all be worth it because think how much more meaningful Jaime’s redemption will be, consider what you’re telling to all the women in your life, all the women around you, about the relative value of their suffering weighed against the opportunity for a man to better himself.

Before you excuse it because it’s a fictional world and no one was really hurt, I invite you to consider where you got the idea that a man can force himself on a woman against her will and have it be anything other than an unforgivable crime, and where these ideas go when you send them back out into the world by repeating them.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Dark567 » Mon Apr 21, 2014 5:06 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:The following is an episode spoiler as well as a rape trigger warning spoiler.
Spoiler:
Yeah, I'd say that was probably the single worst decision that has been made about a departure from the book. Aren't we eventually supposed to sympathize with Jaime as he redeems himself? Weren't we already supposed to start doing that at this point? Unless they just go ahead and keep his character dark and unlikeable for the rest of the series, they're basically going to tell fans they should grow to love Jaime again after his doing this.

Rape trigger and episode spoilers
Spoiler:
It's important to remember the scene in the books is from Jaimes POV and he claims she enjoys it and everything, although its pretty clear from the text that although he doesn't think its rape, that its rape.

ASOS wrote:There was no tenderness in the kiss he returned to her, only hunger. Her mouth opened from his tongue. 'No...not here. The septons...' 'The Others can take the septons.'...She pounded on his chest with feeble fists, muttering about the risk, the danger, about her father, about the septons, about the wrath of the gods. He never heard her."
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Vahir » Mon Apr 21, 2014 5:18 pm UTC

Dark567 wrote:
gmalivuk wrote:The following is an episode spoiler as well as a rape trigger warning spoiler.
Spoiler:
Yeah, I'd say that was probably the single worst decision that has been made about a departure from the book. Aren't we eventually supposed to sympathize with Jaime as he redeems himself? Weren't we already supposed to start doing that at this point? Unless they just go ahead and keep his character dark and unlikeable for the rest of the series, they're basically going to tell fans they should grow to love Jaime again after his doing this.

Rape trigger and episode spoilers
Spoiler:
It's important to remember the scene in the books is from Jaimes POV and he claims she enjoys it and everything, although its pretty clear from the text that although he doesn't think its rape, that its rape.

ASOS wrote:There was no tenderness in the kiss he returned to her, only hunger. Her mouth opened from his tongue. 'No...not here. The septons...' 'The Others can take the septons.'...She pounded on his chest with feeble fists, muttering about the risk, the danger, about her father, about the septons, about the wrath of the gods. He never heard her."


Spoiler:
A few lines later she urges him on, though. I got the impression that it was always like that, that she'd play hard to get and that when Jaime would push for it, she'd get into it. While still rape-y, it seems like it's an understanding they've come to. Contrast that with the show, which gave us absolutely no indication of that chemistry.

Finding out that his sister is an evil, manipulative bitch was pretty damn integral to the developement of Jaime's character, I'd say. This scene blows that all to hell.

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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby ArgonV » Mon Apr 21, 2014 7:40 pm UTC

Rape and spoilers
Spoiler:
I know this probably won't be a popular opinion, but you're all disgusted by the rape scene (I'll admit it was pretty rape-y, but Cersei did hug him a few times as well), yet I've heard nothing about Wildlings needlessly and brutally killing an entire village of innocent people. Afterwards they severely traumatize a kid by telling him his parents will be eaten. For me, that beats the Jamie and Cersei scene by a long shot.

I liked the catapult scene. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that wasn't in the books, right?

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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Zohar » Mon Apr 21, 2014 8:04 pm UTC

Episode spoilers:
Spoiler:
The pillaging wildlings aren't characters we know and particularly appreciate - they're pretty much red shirts. The point everyone is making, is that a character who we think is going places in terms of good/evil acts in a rather contradictory manner. Bad people keep being bad people isn't anything very new or cringe-worthy, they were definitely displayed as evil people before and we don't expect anything different from them.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Ixtellor » Mon Apr 21, 2014 8:41 pm UTC

Spoiler:
So there are degrees of rape, and people define it differently -- that's all for debate. But for me I do agree that it only serves to make Jaime less likable. Although, I wasn't terrible disturbed by the event --- I got the impression she just didn't want to do it by her sons corpse, which I agree was ... er bad. --- but not nearly as evil as the village decimation or even the Hound stealing the Silver.
The hound is my favorite character, and while not unexpected, I still hated seeing him steal the poor guys money -- and was more distressed by that event than the rape scene.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Lazar » Mon Apr 21, 2014 8:58 pm UTC

Zohar wrote:
Spoiler:
The pillaging wildlings aren't characters we know and particularly appreciate - they're pretty much red shirts. The point everyone is making, is that a character who we think is going places in terms of good/evil acts in a rather contradictory manner. Bad people keep being bad people isn't anything very new or cringe-worthy, they were definitely displayed as evil people before and we don't expect anything different from them.
Spoiler:
You're forgetting that Ygritte was among them. She's a character that the viewers have grown to like to some extent, so it's disturbing to see her killing a noncombatant in cold blood.

Ixtellor wrote:
Spoiler:
The hound is my favorite character, and while not unexpected, I still hated seeing him steal the poor guys money -- and was more distressed by that event than the rape scene.
Spoiler:
Well, he stated his moral logic pretty clearly: he's certain that the man and his daughter won't survive the winter, and dead men don't need silver. From his point of view (a very unsentimental one), it's no worse than taking something off a corpse.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Vahir » Mon Apr 21, 2014 10:52 pm UTC

Lazar wrote:]
Spoiler:
You're forgetting that Ygritte was among them. She's a character that the viewers have grown to like to some extent, so it's disturbing to see her killing a noncombatant in cold blood.


Spoiler:
The difference being that Ygritte isn't in a redemption arc. Jaime's supposed to be becoming a better person, what with his saving Brienne and all.

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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby gmalivuk » Mon Apr 21, 2014 11:01 pm UTC

Book Spoiler
Spoiler:
Not only is she not on a redemption arc, she dies soon.

The Hound is on a bit of an arc himself, morally gray though it may be, and he very pointedly doesn't commit wanton murder or rape, which is part of why he's a somewhat sympathetic character and his brother isn't. Yes, he killed when ordered, and occasionally went too far even when he wasn't ordered, but that isn't the same thing as rape and torture and the murder of innocents.
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