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Re: Doctor Who

Postby You, sir, name? » Thu Jul 01, 2010 11:01 am UTC

EsotericWombat wrote:The presence of an American actor playing the lead doesn't necessarily mean that it'd be an Americanization (especially given that the article in question was discredited). Personally I'd like to see a Doctor Who movie about the Time War.


Of course it would. It would need to be "adapted for an American audience". Which means
  • Adding a sappy love story with no real connection to the rest of the plot.
  • Adding a lengthy car (or better yet, helicopter) chase with no real connection to the rest of the plot.
  • Adding a series of explosions with no real connection to the rest of the plot.
  • K-9 would return, remodeled into a speaking howitzer.
  • The doctor would become a devout catholic, and a military man.
  • The tardis would be armed to the teeth, and the the sonic screwdriver would be replaced with an assault rifle, or possibly a light saber.
  • A supporting character would be added, and cast to some minority (the token jewish or black guy).

Because Hollywood seems intent on catering to every conceivable audience all at once, they butcher anything they do into a frankensteinian mixture of genres that doesn't really appease to anyone.
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Re: Doctor Who

Postby EsotericWombat » Thu Jul 01, 2010 11:27 am UTC

(a) The 1996 Doctor Who made-for-TV movie was intended as a backdoor pilot for a Doctor Who series on Fox in America and contained none of those.

(b) The current incarnation of Doctor Who has been extremely well-received by American audiences without any modification.

(c) Fuck off.
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Re: Doctor Who

Postby You, sir, name? » Thu Jul 01, 2010 11:39 am UTC

EsotericWombat wrote:(b) The current incarnation of Doctor Who has been extremely well-received by American audiences without any modification.


But this is a film, not a TV show. Hollywood brass are insanely insecure about their productions. They don't dare stray from their very narrow recipe for a "successful" film. Sappy love stories are completely non-negotiable. No matter how unrelated they are to the main plot, films just aren't made that don't have them crammed in there.
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Re: Doctor Who

Postby SlyReaper » Thu Jul 01, 2010 12:37 pm UTC

EsotericWombat wrote:(a) The 1996 Doctor Who made-for-TV movie was intended as a backdoor pilot for a Doctor Who series on Fox in America and contained none of those.

(b) The current incarnation of Doctor Who has been extremely well-received by American audiences without any modification.

(c) Fuck off.


(a) It was an unsuccessful pilot, so you can't really use it to support your argument. If it had contained none of those things AND been successful in the US (never mind about elsewhere), it would be a valid counter-example.

(b) What ysn said.

(c) Nah.
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Re: Doctor Who

Postby JayDee » Thu Jul 01, 2010 12:40 pm UTC

On the other hand, there have been a couple of somewhat successful US adaptations of UK shows recently, which haven't done all the things on your list. The Office is one, and from what I understand the US version of Life On Mars wasn't too shit. Sure, I can't imagine what need there was to do so, but Americanisation of a show no longer seems to mean making a joke of it.
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Re: Doctor Who

Postby You, sir, name? » Thu Jul 01, 2010 12:53 pm UTC

JayDee wrote:On the other hand, there have been a couple of somewhat successful US adaptations of UK shows recently, which haven't done all the things on your list. The Office is one, and from what I understand the US version of Life On Mars wasn't too shit. Sure, I can't imagine what need there was to do so, but Americanisation of a show no longer seems to mean making a joke of it.


Americanization of a TV-show mostly means turning explicit mentions of sex into allusions of sex. Occasionally they're insecure enough about what they're doing that they start cutting in the concept as well, but that's thankfully pretty rare.

Films are quite different, though. Even American productions are mutilated beyond recognition by the big cheeses in Hollywood. Just look what they did to Star Trek!
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Re: Doctor Who

Postby Persephonethinx » Thu Jul 01, 2010 2:03 pm UTC

I don't think a Doctor Who movie would end up being very good regardless of success. The best Doctor Who stories have always been the little ones, the self-contained episodes with a small cast of characters that we get to know intimately rather than the BIG! EXCITING! episodes where LOTS OF STUFF HAPPENS! AND EXPLOSIONS! which would invariably be the story for a movie script.

Now I realize that there is no chance of Hollywood ever doing this, but I think stories dealing with the history of the Doctor Who universe would work very well on screen as stand-alone movies. For example, how Omega and Rassilon invent time travel, rise to power, and overthrow The Pythia. Audiences that have never heard of Doctor Who don't need to worry because this story has nothing to do with The Doctor (unless you want to play up The Other bit), and has only been hinted at in the tv show. So unfamiliar audiences can understand with no background in the show and Doctor Who fans get a treat with the history of Gallifrey (and the enormous amount of in-jokes that would likely show up). And it would look pretty kickass on screen if it had a big enough budget.

Or maybe this is just me wanting to see a beautifully realized Gallifrey and Omega falling into a black hole on the big screen.
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Re: Doctor Who

Postby charliepanayi » Thu Jul 01, 2010 2:09 pm UTC

This argument seems a bit pointless considering such a movie would probably never happen anyway.

And I liked last year's Star Trek!
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Re: Doctor Who

Postby Various Varieties » Thu Jul 01, 2010 6:52 pm UTC

EsotericWombat wrote:The presence of an American actor playing the lead

"Lots of planets have a North New World!"

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Re: Doctor Who

Postby Magnanimous » Thu Jul 01, 2010 7:27 pm UTC

It'd be kind of cool to see either Eccleston or Tennant come back for an American series, since we haven't seen all of what the Ninth and Tenth Doctors have done. The British Doctor Who would continue forward with the overall plot, while American Who would just muddle around in what's already happened and attract more viewers.

But a full movie... Just... no. Because no. It'd probably be in 3D.

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Re: Doctor Who

Postby Whelan » Thu Jul 01, 2010 9:54 pm UTC

And being Doctor Who, wouldn't really work with fewer than 4.
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Re: Doctor Who

Postby Link » Fri Jul 02, 2010 9:34 am UTC

Pseudorandom Doctor Who thought: it would be cool if they made another episode with various incarnations of the Doctor meeting one another, such as Smith, Tennant, Eccleston and McGann. Fighting one of the really big baddies, of course - e.g. Omega or the Alliance.

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Re: Doctor Who

Postby keozen » Fri Jul 02, 2010 10:51 am UTC

The BBC have come out and denied any current plans for a Doctor Who movie of any sort, you may now:
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Soooooooooo, back to normal discussion.
Spoiler:
Do we still have people on board with my theory that the voice in the TARDIS (silence will fall) may be the Dream Lord/Valeyard?

Also, that WAS an interesting thought brought up a while back. What if Gallifrey has been reset in the universe with the happenings of The Big Bang?? Does anyone have the txt of when 11 was lamenting about Gallifrey in "The Beast Below" (the "bad day" speech)? Were there any mentions of Gallifrey being in his memory, etc that could have been hints?
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Re: Doctor Who

Postby SlyReaper » Fri Jul 02, 2010 10:55 am UTC

Spoiler:
Well the Doctor remembers Gallifrey, but he also remembers it being time locked, so by rights, the universe should have reset with Gallifrey still being time locked.
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Re: Doctor Who

Postby Sir_Elderberry » Fri Jul 02, 2010 1:01 pm UTC

Spoiler:
Gallifrey coming back due to the universal reset would make perfect sense. Gallifrey remaining gone due to the massive time lock, would also make perfect sense. The writers have set themselves up for Gallifrey's return, but they also made it so they don't have to take it.

And I never saw any evidence that the Dream Lord was more than a temporary psychic projection.
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Re: Doctor Who

Postby JayDee » Fri Jul 02, 2010 1:13 pm UTC

Spoiler:
Wasn't the plan to reboot the universe based on the memory imprinted on the atoms withing the pandorica? Sure, bringing back the Doctor based on Amy's memories fell outside of that, but the universe as a whole should be not really any different that it was before.

Hmm. Except that the Doc. got locked in the Pandorica back in the days of the Romans.
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Re: Doctor Who

Postby Dobblesworth » Fri Jul 02, 2010 1:51 pm UTC

keozen wrote:
Spoiler:
Do we still have people on board with my theory that the voice in the TARDIS (silence will fall) may be the Dream Lord/Valeyard?
Spoiler:
I'm not too versed in the classic enemies, but Valeyard seems plausible. Definitely agree it's a higher-up third party BigBad, currently unannounced reboot of a ye olde villaine. Omega would be fun too. Too soon after End Of Time for it to be Rassillon/The Master I think, so yeah, it's probably another Time Lord. Or maybe River Song is MTF transsexual and it's her past self? :D

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Re: Doctor Who

Postby Sir_Elderberry » Fri Jul 02, 2010 2:50 pm UTC

JayDee wrote:
Spoiler:
Wasn't the plan to reboot the universe based on the memory imprinted on the atoms withing the pandorica? Sure, bringing back the Doctor based on Amy's memories fell outside of that, but the universe as a whole should be not really any different that it was before.

Hmm. Except that the Doc. got locked in the Pandorica back in the days of the Romans.

Spoiler:
The Doctor was a special case, because he was at the heart of the explosion according to River Song. He was trapped on the other side of the cracks.
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Re: Doctor Who

Postby sugarhyped » Fri Jul 02, 2010 3:07 pm UTC

Sir_Elderberry wrote:
JayDee wrote:
Spoiler:
Wasn't the plan to reboot the universe based on the memory imprinted on the atoms withing the pandorica? Sure, bringing back the Doctor based on Amy's memories fell outside of that, but the universe as a whole should be not really any different that it was before.

Hmm. Except that the Doc. got locked in the Pandorica back in the days of the Romans.

Spoiler:
The Doctor was a special case, because he was at the heart of the explosion according to River Song. He was trapped on the other side of the cracks.


Spoiler:
I think it was that Amy had been living with the crack for all her life affecting her. So she specifically had the power to bring people out of it like her parents and then the doctor when she remembered. If anyone can remember then River should have brought him back.
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Re: Doctor Who

Postby You, sir, name? » Sat Jul 03, 2010 9:07 am UTC

Link wrote:Pseudorandom Doctor Who thought: it would be cool if they made another episode with various incarnations of the Doctor meeting one another, such as Smith, Tennant, Eccleston and McGann. Fighting one of the really big baddies, of course - e.g. Omega or the Alliance.


Indeed, tradition dictates that there needs to be another "The N Doctors" episode, where N\{2,3,5,8}.
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Re: Doctor Who

Postby phlip » Sat Jul 03, 2010 9:18 am UTC

Well, there was that special/fangasm with Peter Davison a couple of years back... I think it'd be hard to pull off a full episode with any of the old-series guys in it...

A Three Doctors episode with just the new ones could work, though.

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Re: Doctor Who

Postby SlyReaper » Sat Jul 03, 2010 9:44 am UTC

You, sir, name? wrote:
Link wrote:Pseudorandom Doctor Who thought: it would be cool if they made another episode with various incarnations of the Doctor meeting one another, such as Smith, Tennant, Eccleston and McGann. Fighting one of the really big baddies, of course - e.g. Omega or the Alliance.


Indeed, tradition dictates that there needs to be another "The N Doctors" episode, where N\{2,3,5,8}.


Why, is there something special about that small section of the Fibonacci sequence?
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Re: Doctor Who

Postby You, sir, name? » Sat Jul 03, 2010 9:50 am UTC

SlyReaper wrote:
You, sir, name? wrote:
Link wrote:Pseudorandom Doctor Who thought: it would be cool if they made another episode with various incarnations of the Doctor meeting one another, such as Smith, Tennant, Eccleston and McGann. Fighting one of the really big baddies, of course - e.g. Omega or the Alliance.


Indeed, tradition dictates that there needs to be another "The N Doctors" episode, where N\{2,3,5,8}.


Why, is there something special about that small section of the Fibonacci sequence?


For each number N in that set, there already exists a Doctor Who serial named "The N Doctors" (#8 was a paperback, but whatever.)
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Re: Doctor Who

Postby SlyReaper » Sat Jul 03, 2010 10:56 am UTC

Yeah, I just find it interesting that they've only chosen numbers from the Fibonacci sequence.
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Re: Doctor Who

Postby Whelan » Sat Jul 03, 2010 11:06 am UTC

Which means the next one is 13, so we'll have to wait until post-Matt Smith, and his replacement.
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Re: Doctor Who

Postby SlyReaper » Sat Jul 03, 2010 12:45 pm UTC

Well we could have two episodes called "The One Doctor" I suppose.
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Re: Doctor Who

Postby You, sir, name? » Sat Jul 03, 2010 2:46 pm UTC

SlyReaper wrote:Yeah, I just find it interesting that they've only chosen numbers from the Fibonacci sequence.


Probably coincidental up to the 8 doctors. That may be intentional. Still, there are at most 210 possible choices of 4 unique numbers from 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, so it's hardly against staggering odds.
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Re: Doctor Who

Postby jaap » Sat Jul 03, 2010 7:14 pm UTC

You, sir, name? wrote:
SlyReaper wrote:Yeah, I just find it interesting that they've only chosen numbers from the Fibonacci sequence.

Probably coincidental up to the 8 doctors. That may be intentional. Still, there are at most 210 35 possible choices of 4 unique numbers from 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, so it's hardly against staggering odds.


7C4 = 7*6*5*4/(4*3*2*1) = 35.

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Re: Doctor Who

Postby You, sir, name? » Sat Jul 03, 2010 7:39 pm UTC

jaap wrote:
You, sir, name? wrote:
SlyReaper wrote:Yeah, I just find it interesting that they've only chosen numbers from the Fibonacci sequence.

Probably coincidental up to the 8 doctors. That may be intentional. Still, there are at most 210 35 possible choices of 4 unique numbers from 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, so it's hardly against staggering odds.


7C4 = 7*6*5*4/(4*3*2*1) = 35.


Hmm, yeah. That's probably true. I never was particularly good at combinatorics. But still, even less staggering odds. You can -probably- argue that the odds are better still, seeing as how the first serials were limited to smaller numbers than the latter ones. But I doubt that'll go beyond hand-waving.
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Re: Doctor Who

Postby keozen » Mon Jul 05, 2010 8:55 am UTC

Spoiler:
Random thought/theory (not sure if I believe it or not but it popped into my head).

I wonder if we did just see the creation of the Valeyard without realising it. The Doctor was brought back into the rebooted universe because Amy (then everyone else) remembered him, what if he's ALSO still on the other side of the cracks that closed. You then have the potential for that doctor to be corrupted by whatever mojo is on the other side and become the Valeyard. All you need do after that is have him escape back to our universe somehow.
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Re: Doctor Who

Postby ConMan » Tue Jul 06, 2010 1:25 am UTC

Having finally seen the finale (Australia has been about 1 1/2-2 weeks behind the UK, I think, and I played nicely and watched it on TV or on the ABC's "iView" site except for 2-parters where I would grab the second part to watch straight afterwards), some of my thoughts:

On the series as a whole:
Spoiler:
About half good, half bad. The SM episodes were still the best of the bunch, but they didn't always stand out as well as they did in the RTD era. There were some moments of genius (I quite liked the "something old, etc." bit in particular), but many of them were hampered by excessive lampshade-hanging and finger pointing. Come on, you don't have to assume the audience is a bunch of morons who need everything spelled out for them, leave that to the American shows!*

I like Matt Smith as the new Doctor, and I hope that in future series he gets to establish his own character more - a lot of the time it felt like he was a bit too David Tennant-esque, probably partially due to the transition and partially due to writers taking story ideas they'd originally had for David and rewriting them for Matt.

I am quite happy that we are probably going to have two companions for a while, particularly two who are involved with each other rather than another Rose or Martha. Not having seen much of the original series and only briefly skimming Wikipedia, I know that there have been multiple companions a few times, but is this the first "couple" since Barbara and Ian (who were only really officially made a couple in the Expanded Universe)? Amy and Rory are also an interesting pair, slightly reminiscent of Gwyn and Rhys from Torchwood but different in their own way - which actually makes me think it would be quite fun to have the two couples meet up and swap tales of being married while dealing with aliens and monsters and the like.

*I know, I know.


On the story arc(s) and the finale:
Spoiler:
It's actually kind of funny that shortly into watching "The Pandorica Opens" I had the idea that it would be good for the writers to drop "arc words" or other hints for a future story arc, rather than just thinking one season at a time. So I'm surprised and delighted that while all the "cracks in space and time" and "TARDIS exploding" and "Pandorica opening" stuff was dealt with, there's still the question of who was reponsible for it, along with "silence will fall" and River Song killing "the best man I ever knew".

I kinda-sorta-not-really guessed what the Pandorica was for, in the sense that when they were talking about the "most powerful, most feared being in the universe" I wondered what could possibly be worse than the Doctor, and wondered if there was some wordplay going on like the great line from the Angels episodes of the one thing you don't want to put in a trap.


On River Song, with some speculation:
Spoiler:
I like River Song a bit better here than in the Library, and a friend of mine points out that in those episodes she didn't really seem like the kind of person who would actually be the Doctor's whatever. Part of the reason I like her more may be because it's starting to look like it's a lot more complicated than that - Doctor Song seems quite willing to keep things from the Doctor that seem more to be "I don't want you to know this because it doesn't suit my interests" than "you shouldn't know this yet", which suggests that she's a bit sneakier than Professor Song appeared.

It seemed to me in "The Pandorica Opens" that River wasn't introduced to Amy, so unless I missed that scene it suggests that there'll be at least one more meeting with an even earlier River while Amy is around, and given that companions tend to not get more than a couple of seasons it will probably happen in 2011.


On some other speculation, particularly some of the Wild Mass Guessing in this thread:
Spoiler:
I too would love for the Valeyard to show up, and there are hints that he or a similar character may - the "Dream Lord" was in some ways a representation of him, and he'd be a welcome alternative to the rotating-door policy on the Daleks, Cybermen and Master (again, strong agreement that I'm sick of these guys being "destroyed for good" only to reveal that there was a behind-the-scenes asspull that saved them in time for their next appearance. I know the reboot has left a lot of things, like how many regenerations the Doctor actually has, a bit fuzzy, so presumably they just need to do a bit of hand-waving and hint-dropping to at least get ready for a Valeyard appearance in a couple of seasons.

Then again, has the Master gotten the drums out of his head yet? Maybe he's looking for a bit of peace and quiet - or, to put it another way, "silence will fall".

I would also love to see a "Four Doctors" featuring McGann, Eccleston, Tennant and Smith, but I know it's incredibly unlikely.
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Re: Doctor Who

Postby ArgonV » Tue Jul 06, 2010 10:09 am UTC

ConMan wrote:
Spoiler:
It seemed to me in "The Pandorica Opens" that River wasn't introduced to Amy, so unless I missed that scene it suggests that there'll be at least one more meeting with an even earlier River while Amy is around, and given that companions tend to not get more than a couple of seasons it will probably happen in 2011.

She already was, in 'The Time of Angels'

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Re: Doctor Who

Postby Dobblesworth » Tue Jul 06, 2010 10:24 am UTC

ArgonV wrote:
ConMan wrote:
Spoiler:
It seemed to me in "The Pandorica Opens" that River wasn't introduced to Amy, so unless I missed that scene it suggests that there'll be at least one more meeting with an even earlier River while Amy is around, and given that companions tend to not get more than a couple of seasons it will probably happen in 2011.

She already was, in 'The Time of Angels'

River Song's appearance in the Pandorica episodes is earlier in her timestream than Time of Angels, and earlier still than the Library.
However in the Doctor's and Amy's timestreams, it's the reverse.
Amy had met a River by the events of the Pandorica, but River is suggested to have not done likewise.
Time Traveller's Wife if you will, only we so far have just three points in their respective timestreams to compare against, and they so far extrapolate to straight lines in opposite directions, whereas I think TTW flits around a bit more.

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Re: Doctor Who

Postby Glmclain » Tue Jul 06, 2010 5:59 pm UTC

I'm late to the party! After taking a chance one day I watched the first episode of the 2005 "Dr. Who" reboot and I was forever hooked. I'm in the middle of season two right now. I could have been done by now, but I don't want to lose David Tennant!
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Re: Doctor Who

Postby SlyReaper » Tue Jul 06, 2010 6:01 pm UTC

Glmclain wrote:I'm late to the party! After taking a chance one day I watched the first episode of the 2005 "Dr. Who" reboot and I was forever hooked. I'm in the middle of season two right now. I could have been done by now, but I don't want to lose David Tennant!

He didn't want to go either.
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Re: Doctor Who

Postby You, sir, name? » Tue Jul 06, 2010 7:48 pm UTC

I can't take the original cybermen seriously (tomb of the cybermen spoiler). Whenever I hear them speak, my mind goes intergalactic.
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Re: Doctor Who

Postby Giant Speck » Thu Jul 08, 2010 8:40 am UTC

After three weeks of having to put off television watching due to work and a busy home life, I have finally caught up to the very end of the season. I'm happy to have finally seen the three episodes I have missed, but now I'm sad because I have to wait for the next season to see more. :(
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Re: Doctor Who

Postby thatguy » Fri Jul 09, 2010 2:41 pm UTC

I think I've heard the Doctor Who spinoff Torchwood got picked up for an American version by Starz!, a premium HBO-esque network.

Discuss.

Or don't.

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Re: Doctor Who

Postby sugarhyped » Fri Jul 09, 2010 3:12 pm UTC

it would really suck on basic cable so yay for starz!.
i think it would be rude if people in america got to see it before the uk, but starz! may not work like that.

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Re: Doctor Who

Postby animeHrmIne » Fri Jul 09, 2010 4:40 pm UTC

But as an American show, it would also be rude if it premiered in the UK first. I would hope they would do it on the same day, there first but only by maybe a few hours. It would cut down on the people illegally downloading episodes over here just so we aren't terrified of using the internet for fear of spoilers (I found out about Ianto because I waited for the American premiere).

Which reminds me, I need to make a new icon and signature. Hmm. I think I'll do that today.
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