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Whelan
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Re: Doctor Who

Postby Whelan » Sun Jun 20, 2010 7:47 pm UTC

no-genius wrote:
EdgarJPublius wrote:This made me think that maybe
Spoiler:
River could be a future Regeneration of the Doctor?

I thought that too. But we know
Spoiler:
she died, although I s'pose she could've regenerated afterwards.

Spoiler:
We don't know that, we know she got shot, woke up later and stole a ship. The last scene of that episode shows her alive and well, and not regenerated. It's implied the terraformer fixed her up.
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Re: Doctor Who

Postby MysteryBall » Sun Jun 20, 2010 7:59 pm UTC

Whelan wrote:
no-genius wrote:
EdgarJPublius wrote:This made me think that maybe
Spoiler:
River could be a future Regeneration of the Doctor?

I thought that too. But we know
Spoiler:
she died, although I s'pose she could've regenerated afterwards.

Spoiler:
We don't know that, we know she got shot, woke up later and stole a ship. The last scene of that episode shows her alive and well, and not regenerated. It's implied the terraformer fixed her up.


That was Jenny.

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Re: Doctor Who

Postby no-genius » Sun Jun 20, 2010 8:00 pm UTC

I was talking about River Song, not Jenny.

Spoiler:
Jenny coming back and being a big damn hero seems a bit deus ex machina, although its possible I guess. Speaking of Curse of Fatal Death, what're the chances that before the start of the episode the Doctor had lunch with the guy who built the pandorica?


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Re: Doctor Who

Postby Whelan » Sun Jun 20, 2010 8:17 pm UTC

Cue wrote:
Whelan wrote:
no-genius wrote:
EdgarJPublius wrote:This made me think that maybe
Spoiler:
River could be a future Regeneration of the Doctor?

I thought that too. But we know
Spoiler:
she died, although I s'pose she could've regenerated afterwards.

Spoiler:
We don't know that, we know she got shot, woke up later and stole a ship. The last scene of that episode shows her alive and well, and not regenerated. It's implied the terraformer fixed her up.


That was Jenny.

Durrr, I didn't read the pyramid, I thought this was the suggestion that
Spoiler:
River was a regeneration of Jenny
.
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Re: Doctor Who

Postby eSOANEM » Sun Jun 20, 2010 8:51 pm UTC

keozen wrote:
Spoiler:
River is still alive and has the TARDIS, even if it's not working as intended at the moment so any fight back will start there I think. Because of the River storyline we know that she's a constant and more or less "can't die" as we've already seen bits of her future after this.


Spoiler:
The TARDIS exploded with her inside, that doesn't sound very survivable to me.


Whelan wrote:
Spoiler:
River was a regeneration of Jenny
.


This sounds plausible to me
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Re: Doctor Who

Postby MysteryBall » Sun Jun 20, 2010 8:54 pm UTC

Spoiler:
Autons controlled by Nestene Conciousness, what are we missing here? In 'Rose', they had to keep the original (Mickey) alive in order to maintain the clone.

I'll let you think what you wish here.

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Re: Doctor Who

Postby Whelan » Sun Jun 20, 2010 9:04 pm UTC

Cue wrote:
Spoiler:
Autons controlled by Nestene Conciousness, what are we missing here? In 'Rose', they had to keep the original (Mickey) alive in order to maintain the clone.

I'll let you think what you wish here.

Spoiler:
Or the Doctor was lying to keep Rose happy, which seems more likely to me at least.
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Re: Doctor Who

Postby EdgarJPublius » Sun Jun 20, 2010 9:45 pm UTC

eSOANEM wrote:
keozen wrote:
Spoiler:
River is still alive and has the TARDIS, even if it's not working as intended at the moment so any fight back will start there I think. Because of the River storyline we know that she's a constant and more or less "can't die" as we've already seen bits of her future after this.


Spoiler:
The TARDIS exploded with her inside, that doesn't sound very survivable to me.



Spoiler:
The Tardis hasn't exploded yet (at least not on screen).

And anyway, we know that the River from the "The Time of Angels/Flesh and Stone" two-parter survived the Pandorica situation
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Re: Doctor Who

Postby ArgonV » Sun Jun 20, 2010 9:56 pm UTC

Spoiler:
Might these episodes be linked to River killing whomever she did?

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Re: Doctor Who

Postby Whelan » Sun Jun 20, 2010 10:00 pm UTC

EdgarJPublius wrote:
eSOANEM wrote:
keozen wrote:
Spoiler:
River is still alive and has the TARDIS, even if it's not working as intended at the moment so any fight back will start there I think. Because of the River storyline we know that she's a constant and more or less "can't die" as we've already seen bits of her future after this.

Spoiler:
The TARDIS exploded with her inside, that doesn't sound very survivable to me.

Spoiler:
The Tardis hasn't exploded yet (at least not on screen).
And anyway, we know that the River from the "The Time of Angels/Flesh and Stone" two-parter survived the Pandorica situation
Spoiler:
Maybe that's what breaks the Universe, her dying at the wrong point in her timeline.
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Re: Doctor Who

Postby MysteryBall » Mon Jun 21, 2010 6:58 am UTC

EdgarJPublius wrote:
Spoiler:
The Tardis hasn't exploded yet (at least not on screen).


Spoiler:
The whole central column went boom at the end, didn't it?

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Re: Doctor Who

Postby keozen » Mon Jun 21, 2010 7:36 am UTC

Spoiler:
Random theories and comments on other ones:

- The Doctor has mentioned "fixed points in time" during this series (he mentioned that the case with the Silurians was not a "fixed point") so that may have been some foreshadowing. What if Amy & Rory's wedding was supposed to have been a fixed point and that's why the universe is cracking around it as the Doctor set into motion events causing it not to happen? Or something like that?

- I'm not in on the whole "River is a regeneration of Jenny" thing. Mainly because of one thing, she calls him "Sweety". It's a familiar term not generally used by a Daughter referring to her father as that would be more than a little creepy. Also I'm still sticking to my guns here that I think great efforts are being made here to make very little references to the Russell T era so that SM can really put his own stamp on the series. I know that having Jenny come back to life at the end of TDD was SM's idea but I think he'll either bring Jenny back quite a bit later or not bother to do so at all. I have however been wrong on a number of previous occasions.

- What is controlling the TARDIS/Who is the "Silence will fall" voice? Well I'll say now who I think it ISN'T. i don't think it's the Master, Davros or any other such villain that has already appeared in one of the series from Eccleston forwards. My personal guess would be the Dream Lord who ends up becoming the Valeyard but I'll admit that part of that is me WANTING it to be the Valeyard as I think it'd be cool. I don't think it'd be any of the timelords trapped in the time lock so soon after last season's finale. I think that'll be left alone for a fair while before touched on again, it could however be another timelord that escaped being in the timelock at all.

- In confidential they kept referring to Amy as having been "killed" by Rory. And SM referred to her as dead. Either this is a (not so elaborate) bluff or something "Wibbly wobbly timey wimey" will happen to reverse her death as we know Karen Gillan is signed up for the next series (OR we get our first Zombie assistant, equal rights ftw).
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Re: Doctor Who

Postby Sytri » Mon Jun 21, 2010 7:44 am UTC

Spoiler:
OK, my view on this. The Pandorica will survive the explosion of the Universe as the Alliance have created too good a prison. As the universe falls to silence it will break the time lock on Gallifrey. The other time lords, who will transend as they wanted to, will be convinced by the Doctor to restore the universe which will be in their powers after they reach their new state. As they do this it will restore Amy and Rory to life as they will use the Doctors memory of the universe to bring everything back.


Just my theory. Rantings of a sleepy welshman if you will.
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Re: Doctor Who

Postby TaintedDeity » Mon Jun 21, 2010 9:13 am UTC

Spoiler:
I had the same though as Keo about the 'silence will fall' voice perhaps being the dream lord or whoever that was. That's a rather interesting way out Sytri, I guess the writers aren't as trapped as some of us thought.
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Re: Doctor Who

Postby Sytri » Mon Jun 21, 2010 9:24 am UTC

Thanks. Sometimes I can hit the nail on the head with plots like
Spoiler:
The Pandorica being a prison for the Doctor. Saw that coming as soon as they said it held a great warrior or whatever
other times it seems like I've gone off on a complete tangent.

Spoiler:
I'd love it for Gallifrey to be brought back. Having the doctor trying to save the universe whilst being hunted by the time lords for War Crimes would be interesting. Although thinking about it, if the time lords come back then so does the master and as much as I like the plot lines with the master in he annoys me :(


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Re: Doctor Who

Postby thecommabandit » Mon Jun 21, 2010 11:12 am UTC

Sytri wrote:Thanks. Sometimes I can hit the nail on the head with plots like
Spoiler:
The Pandorica being a prison for the Doctor. Saw that coming as soon as they said it held a great warrior or whatever
other times it seems like I've gone off on a complete tangent.

It was especially obvious when he was wondering aloud about what could inspire such fear that they would go to all that trouble to keep it inside.
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Re: Doctor Who

Postby eSOANEM » Mon Jun 21, 2010 1:15 pm UTC

EdgarJPublius wrote:
eSOANEM wrote:
keozen wrote:
Spoiler:
River is still alive and has the TARDIS, even if it's not working as intended at the moment so any fight back will start there I think. Because of the River storyline we know that she's a constant and more or less "can't die" as we've already seen bits of her future after this.


Spoiler:
The TARDIS exploded with her inside, that doesn't sound very survivable to me.



Spoiler:
The Tardis hasn't exploded yet (at least not on screen).

And anyway, we know that the River from the "The Time of Angels/Flesh and Stone" two-parter survived the Pandorica situation


Spoiler:
I'm sure we saw a big white flash behind her when she opened the door only to find a rock wall right in front of it. Just watched it again, the central console definitely explodes properly, not just the sparks-fly explosions we saw earlier. It looked as if the whole thing was going up to me.

And I know that she ought to survive it for the same reason Arthur Dent was temporarily immortal but I wouldn't put it beyond the Dr Who writers to break the timeline.
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Re: Doctor Who

Postby sanguine » Mon Jun 21, 2010 2:01 pm UTC

Spoiler:
How can you be "temporarily immortal"? I thought the whole point of immortality is that lasts forever.
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Re: Doctor Who

Postby phlip » Mon Jun 21, 2010 2:39 pm UTC

sanguine wrote:
Spoiler:
How can you be "temporarily immortal"? I thought the whole point of immortality is that lasts forever.

Wandering into HHGG spoilers now... but still, spoilers:
Spoiler:
Arthur Dent learned of an event that was to happen in his future (he met a person who had met him at a place he'd never been to - and it somehow made sense that it must've been a future Arthur). Since time travel in HHGG is (typically, on the rare occasion it's touched on at all) of the stable-time-loop variety, this means Arthur knows he can't die until that event happens. After the event happens, he's as mortal as anyone else.

Naturally, he tries to learn as much about the place as he can (which is very little), in the hope of avoiding visiting it as long as possible.

So if Doctor Who has a stable-time-loop type of setup, then we'd know River can't die, because we've seen her, twice, in her personal future. If she dies now, she can't go on to be in either The Time of Angels or Silence In the Library. However, Doctor Who is pretty expressly not a stable-time-loop type of setup (except when it is (except when it isn't))... and they say a lot that the knowledge that, say, the Earth wasn't destroyed on some day in history isn't a guarantee that, when they're actually there, it couldn't go the other way and kill the protagonists, because of timey-wimey. Of course, it never does, but they have to say it, otherwise the suspense is gone.

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enum ಠ_ಠ {°□°╰=1, °Д°╰, ಠ益ಠ╰};
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Re: Doctor Who

Postby no-genius » Mon Jun 21, 2010 4:25 pm UTC

Spoiler:
but we saw future Rory in the Silurians episode - and he still died :(
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Re: Doctor Who

Postby Sir_Elderberry » Mon Jun 21, 2010 4:31 pm UTC

Spoiler:
I think that, while the last few episodes of 10 seemed to be big on inevitability and such, season 5 is going for a more free-will themed story. Witness the Doctor's "time can be re/unwritten" lines in Flesh and Stone.
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Re: Doctor Who

Postby aleflamedyud » Mon Jun 21, 2010 9:46 pm UTC

Spoiler:
Reminder: River Song still has a Time Agent's vortex manipulator. She can teleport and/or time-travel even without the TARDIS.
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Re: Doctor Who

Postby keozen » Mon Jun 21, 2010 10:07 pm UTC

Spoiler:
Here's an "out there" theory on River:

Some River tidbits that got me thinking:
- She is a skilled TARDIS pilot (with very different methods from the Doctor). She has mentioned that she "learned from the best" but implied that her teacher was not the Doctor.

- She has the ability to write messages in High Gallifreyan

- Before his death, Octavian tells the Doctor that "You think you know [River], but you don't. You don't understand who or what she is."

- In a recent interview by Digital Spy, Steven Moffat made a passing comment to the effect that River Song might turn out to be very different from people's presumptions as to who she really is.

They basically lead me to wonder if River could be a later regeneration of Romana with memory loss.

A long shot but everything is at this point. Romana was President before Rasilon but he ousted her to gain power and we don't know how. It wouldn't be 100% out of character for him to banish her with a forced regeneration and have her memory tampered with.
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Re: Doctor Who

Postby phlip » Tue Jun 22, 2010 1:17 am UTC

keozen wrote:
Spoiler:
Some River tidbits that got me thinking:
- She is a skilled TARDIS pilot (with very different methods from the Doctor). She has mentioned that she "learned from the best" but implied that her teacher was not the Doctor.
Spoiler:
She was ambiguous about it in The Time of Angels, but I'm pretty sure that in this latest episode she specifically says the Doctor taught her how to fly the TARDIS, just before it exploded.

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enum ಠ_ಠ {°□°╰=1, °Д°╰, ಠ益ಠ╰};
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Re: Doctor Who

Postby torontoraptor » Tue Jun 22, 2010 6:04 am UTC

ArgonV wrote:
Spoiler:
Might these episodes be linked to River killing whomever she did?


Spoiler:
Ooh I like this idea, what with them refusing to say and being really uncomfortable around the Doctor when they mention it. Of course, that still leaves us without knowing who she kills. We know it isn't the Doctor, since he isn't going to be regenerating yet, but she gets put away by the clerics for it, implying that it isn't a Dalek or Cybermen or such.
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Re: Doctor Who

Postby keozen » Tue Jun 22, 2010 7:36 am UTC

phlip wrote:
keozen wrote:
Spoiler:
Some River tidbits that got me thinking:
- She is a skilled TARDIS pilot (with very different methods from the Doctor). She has mentioned that she "learned from the best" but implied that her teacher was not the Doctor.
Spoiler:
She was ambiguous about it in The Time of Angels, but I'm pretty sure that in this latest episode she specifically says the Doctor taught her how to fly the TARDIS, just before it exploded.

She say's it was him in the last ep yes, but she said it wasn't in Time of Angels. In a usual series that'd be a continuity error, in Doctor Who it could very well mean another regeneration of him taught her.

Also I don't think this story is about who she killed as we're "after" that event in her personal timeline, she was already locked in the Stormcage at the beginning of the ep.
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Re: Doctor Who

Postby phlip » Tue Jun 22, 2010 7:58 am UTC

keozen wrote:She say's it was him in the last ep yes, but she said it wasn't in Time of Angels.

Did she? I'm about to head home from work, I'll have to check the ep again, rather than working from memory...

[edit] Huh, you're right. I must've forgotten that line. I guess I wrote it off as facetious, but I guess it could be more than that... [/edit]
keozen wrote:Also I don't think this story is about who she killed as we're "after" that event in her personal timeline, she was already locked in the Stormcage at the beginning of the ep.

When Amy mentioned the Byzantium (when they were checking out Stonehenge) she said that was still in her future... she evidently gets thrown back in that prison again at some point after this Pandorica thing is over. Which, according to the Internet, is actually earlier, real-world-time, though it's later River-time.

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enum ಠ_ಠ {°□°╰=1, °Д°╰, ಠ益ಠ╰};
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Re: Doctor Who

Postby eSOANEM » Tue Jun 22, 2010 8:40 am UTC

aleflamedyud wrote:
Spoiler:
Reminder: River Song still has a Time Agent's vortex manipulator. She can teleport and/or time-travel even without the TARDIS.


Spoiler:
Does that work inside the TARDIS? Or might it's timey-wimey stop that. I don't know, it could be her way out, but if it could get her out, I'd have thought she'd have used it already.


keozen wrote:Also I don't think this story is about who she killed as we're "after" that event in her personal timeline, she was already locked in the Stormcage at the beginning of the ep.


It's possible that current River (doctor time) kills the doctor but an old River gets arrested and thrown into the stormcage.
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Re: Doctor Who

Postby keozen » Tue Jun 22, 2010 9:23 am UTC

eSOANEM wrote:It's possible that current River (doctor time) kills the doctor but an old River gets arrested and thrown into the stormcage.


I thought that at first but she looks pretty accepting at the fact that she's there (if that makes any sense) and her demeanour towards the guard ("You're new here aren't you") seems to suggest that the other guards know she's more dangerous than this one does and she's aware of the fact and ok with it.

It's possible but I doubt it. What's more likely to be true (if this IS to be the story of how she killed whomever she killed) is that this first stint in the Stormcage was for something else entirely, the murder sentence was her SECOND stint in there.

I however don't think it's nearly time to reveal that part of River's timeline just yet.
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Re: Doctor Who

Postby eSOANEM » Tue Jun 22, 2010 9:42 am UTC

keozen wrote:
eSOANEM wrote:It's possible that current River (doctor time) kills the doctor but an old River gets arrested and thrown into the stormcage.


I thought that at first but she looks pretty accepting at the fact that she's there (if that makes any sense) and her demeanour towards the guard ("You're new here aren't you") seems to suggest that the other guards know she's more dangerous than this one does and she's aware of the fact and ok with it.

It's possible but I doubt it. What's more likely to be true (if this IS to be the story of how she killed whomever she killed) is that this first stint in the Stormcage was for something else entirely, the murder sentence was her SECOND stint in there.

I however don't think it's nearly time to reveal that part of River's timeline just yet.


That does seem more plausible.
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Re: Doctor Who

Postby prime » Wed Jun 23, 2010 11:42 pm UTC

Spoiler:
I can't remember the exact lines but there was a scene with the doctor talking to Amy, when he tells her that her life doesn't make any sense, and that her house has too many rooms... and then Amy's house's front door was that particular shade of blue...and what with the extra room in the first episode and the pseudo Tardis in the Lodger episode, I was getting a serious "amy's house is a tardis" vibe. Doesn't really make any sense but what does

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Re: Doctor Who

Postby Sir_Elderberry » Thu Jun 24, 2010 12:59 am UTC

prime wrote:
Spoiler:
I can't remember the exact lines but there was a scene with the doctor talking to Amy, when he tells her that her life doesn't make any sense, and that her house has too many rooms... and then Amy's house's front door was that particular shade of blue...and what with the extra room in the first episode and the pseudo Tardis in the Lodger episode, I was getting a serious "amy's house is a tardis" vibe. Doesn't really make any sense but what does

Spoiler:
See, that "doesn't make any sense" line confuses me a bit. It either refers to some greater issue with Amy--duck pond what has no ducks in it, etc--or it just refers to Rory, who was the context of that conversation. (Presumably he's referring to the logical inconsistencies in having someone just drop out of your life.) That's how I saw the room reference too--it just sounded like him reminding her not to trust her own mind/perceptions or something. I do agree that it'll probably all tie together into something greater.
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sugarhyped
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Re: Doctor Who

Postby sugarhyped » Thu Jun 24, 2010 3:46 am UTC

On the upcoming finale.
Spoiler:
I fear that Moffat will let Amy die just because he knows we are saying he cannot do that.
Although the fact that Amy's life doesn't make sense gives me hope. I remember seeing a clip of the Doctor and Amy that hadn't been watched yet but then I realized it was from this.
He was really good about not putting any finale clips in the trailers. Although I may have not looked that hard for them.
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Lioness
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Re: Doctor Who

Postby Lioness » Thu Jun 24, 2010 8:10 am UTC

Thinking about Prisoner Zero...

"Prisoner Zero has escaped"

What if that's the Doctor escaping from the Pandorica. He's been living in her house since he escaped, getting everything ready and stuff.

Maybe.

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felltir
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Re: Doctor Who

Postby felltir » Thu Jun 24, 2010 8:25 am UTC

Lioness wrote:Thinking about Prisoner Zero...

"Prisoner Zero has escaped"

What if that's the Doctor escaping from the Pandorica. He's been living in her house since he escaped, getting everything ready and stuff.

Maybe.


Spoiler:
We met prisoner 0 in the first episode, did we not?
Spoiler:
RoadieRich wrote:He's a super flexible furry martial artist from London. She is a Rabbit breeding mad scientist from Michigan. They fight crime!
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SlyReaper
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Re: Doctor Who

Postby SlyReaper » Thu Jun 24, 2010 8:53 am UTC

Maybe that wasn't actually prisoner zero. It was a long time ago so my memory is fuzzy, but was it explicitly stated at any time that that shapeshifting beastie was Prisoner Zero?
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phlip
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Re: Doctor Who

Postby phlip » Thu Jun 24, 2010 9:14 am UTC

Well, the giant floating eye guys (did they even have a name?) did recognise the prisoner when it shapeshifted into its creepy snake form... and that wouldn't've been among the photos that the Doctor sent to them from Rory's phone, it must've been a shape they already knew.

Code: Select all

enum ಠ_ಠ {°□°╰=1, °Д°╰, ಠ益ಠ╰};
void ┻━┻︵​╰(ಠ_ಠ ⚠) {exit((int)⚠);}
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bigglesworth
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Re: Doctor Who

Postby bigglesworth » Thu Jun 24, 2010 9:15 am UTC

I think Sly is suggesting it was one of the prisoners, but not prisoner zero.
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felltir
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Re: Doctor Who

Postby felltir » Thu Jun 24, 2010 9:22 am UTC

bigglesworth wrote:I think Sly is suggesting it was one of the prisoners, but not prisoner zero.


well if the doctor is 0, then why didn't they take him too? They knew who he was.
Spoiler:
RoadieRich wrote:He's a super flexible furry martial artist from London. She is a Rabbit breeding mad scientist from Michigan. They fight crime!
The Great Hippo wrote:I THINK THE SOLAR SYSTEM MIGHT BE AN ATOM OF OXYGEN.


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Re: Doctor Who

Postby bigglesworth » Thu Jun 24, 2010 9:35 am UTC

This isn't actually my theory, but... the eye-ship did seem like it was going to do something to him untill he reminded it of all the things the Doctor has done before, when they fled.
Generation Y. I don't remember the First Gulf War, but do remember floppy disks.


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