Heroes! (No spoiler tags for episodes already aired in US)

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Re: Heroes: Here thar be spoilers (Merg'd Season 2)

Postby Aikanaro » Fri Oct 10, 2008 12:50 pm UTC

So long as we're doing ridiculous theories on it....

Well, he DID get an infusion from Claire. Maybe it hit him with Merlin's disease? And Nathan wasn't affected by Adam's blood because he already had a superpower. Also, Nathan didn't own a dog. Dogs enable Merlin's disease. Proven fact! As far as you know....
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Re: Heroes: Here thar be spoilers (Merg'd Season 2)

Postby headprogrammingczar » Fri Oct 10, 2008 12:53 pm UTC

Yeah, if we ignore that he got NUKED 30 seconds later.
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Re: Heroes: Here thar be spoilers (Merg'd Season 2)

Postby Aikanaro » Fri Oct 10, 2008 2:56 pm UTC

Nuked, or UN-NUKED?? Dun-dun-DUNNN!
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Re: Heroes: Here thar be spoilers (Merg'd Season 2)

Postby Chen » Sat Oct 11, 2008 6:28 pm UTC

Man that last episode hurt, it was so full of plot holes.

I mean why did they NOT take the Haitian to go apprehend the second Peter? And how is the first Peter actually dead (since he clearly stayed dead after the Haitian left, as evidenced at the end). And why would Peter (both of them!) walk around visisble when they can BOTH turn invisible.

This show is like a car accident. I know I shouldn't be staring at it, but I can't help myself.

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Re: Heroes: Here thar be spoilers (Merg'd Season 2)

Postby MikeBabaguh » Sat Oct 11, 2008 11:37 pm UTC

Chen wrote:This show is like a car accident. I know I shouldn't be staring at it, but I can't help myself.

My thoughts too. This season seems to have taken a remarkable downturn in terms of quality. I know it was never as good as Lost, but still.
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Re: Heroes: Here thar be spoilers (Merg'd Season 2)

Postby Aikanaro » Sun Oct 12, 2008 5:11 am UTC

Sadly, I now understand the reason for most of the char's being idiots. It revolves around two key principles.

1: Sylar is a Villain Sue:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/VillainSue

2: Tim Kring is not especially clever at twinking, cheatery, etc..

So, in other words, the goal is to have Sylar be capable of outsmarting the rest of the cast on demand, but he's being written by folks who aren't capable of incredible feats of resourcefulness/trickery themselves. As such, the only way to make it work is to dumb down the rest of the cast relative to Sylar. Hence, we have one semi-intelligent wolf in a world of moronic sheep.
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Re: Heroes: Here thar be spoilers (Merg'd Season 2)

Postby Lumpy » Sun Oct 12, 2008 5:15 am UTC

That and the Heroes websites are full of "Sexy Sylar" fan clubs and Sylar was kept from being killed off in Season 1 "by popular demand."

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Re: Heroes: Here thar be spoilers (Merg'd Season 2)

Postby Nath » Sun Oct 12, 2008 5:50 am UTC

Aikanaro wrote:So, in other words, the goal is to have Sylar be capable of outsmarting the rest of the cast on demand, but he's being written by folks who aren't capable of incredible feats of resourcefulness/trickery themselves. As such, the only way to make it work is to dumb down the rest of the cast relative to Sylar. Hence, we have one semi-intelligent wolf in a world of moronic sheep.

That's a nice explanation, but here's a simpler one: the mutation that gives you superpowers also causes early-onset Alzheimer's, and Mohinder is simply stupid.

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Re: Heroes: Here thar be spoilers (Merg'd Season 2)

Postby Jack Saladin » Sun Oct 12, 2008 5:55 am UTC

... That's not any simpler. At all.

The problem with this show is, most definitely, that the writers are simply not very intelligent people. And without intelligent writers, you cannot have intelligent characters, and without intelligent characters, your show will very quickly become very boring.

Sorry, Heroes writers. All I'm saying is, you're stupid. It's nothing personal.

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Re: Heroes: Here thar be spoilers (Merg'd Season 2)

Postby Lumpy » Sun Oct 12, 2008 6:18 am UTC

Post on last week's show

Spoiler:
Also, the creators of Heroes have made apparent that abilities work like Final Fantasy X sphere grids or job systems, so powers can expand in scope whenever they're light on plot ideas. For example, Matt Parkman can read minds, then send thoughts, then images, then hallucinations, and now receive images allowing him to see the future by proxy.

I said I would stop watching after the last show for the past two weeks, because of the gore and the plot holes, but I tuned in anyway. Really, now, Peter should have recognized the warning as that from a former drug addict. Also, if people in alternate futures no longer exist after they're changed, Peter can just time travel into the future studying the brains of the people that won't exist after he saves the world regardless.

I guess this would be fine if it were "refrigerator logic," that is, things you don't think about while watching but instead while wandering back to it days later. This is during the show a lot, though.


Post on this week's show

Spoiler:
I thought the writing was as good as the first season and picking up when the vortex guy killed himself, but then Hiro killed Ando and I realized they were slinging plotpoints around like a Jackson Pollock painting. Also, they never told how Maury escaped from his nightmare world or how Mohinder managed to bring Molly back when they put her on an airplane away from New York City to keep Sylar from getting to her.

The viewers of a serial TV show naturally decline as the show continues to move forward, and viewers tune out as the plot goes on too long for it to make much sense. If it's going to be convoluted, they could at least make it be coherent. They managed to make it be worse than last week's, and I'm not wasting my time on this crap any longer.

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Re: Heroes: Here thar be spoilers (Merg'd Season 2)

Postby Ishindri » Tue Oct 14, 2008 2:09 am UTC

All is well. We are not like the others.

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Re: Heroes: Here thar be spoilers (Merg'd Season 2)

Postby Lumpy » Tue Oct 14, 2008 2:36 am UTC

Spoiler:
I know, it was like there was a scene cut or something, too! One moment they were at a bar looking for recruiters for Angela Petrelli's cause to help find the formula, and another moment they were working against her with the people they were against earlier, for no apparent reason.

They were being all jolly and jovial, doing the "We are bad asses," nerds trying to act tough comedy routine, then things suddenly go serious. It's like they didn't want Ando around, so that the character Hiro would stop being such a light-hearted character and they could integrate him with the rest of the frowny-faced gloom and doom idiots, they but couldn't think of a way to write him out of the series. So they just said "screw it" and had him kill him off.

I am at the very least glad that Linderman turned out to be a hallucination, but I'm tired of these plotholes appearing and the series acting like I have to trust the judgment of the writers and continue watching to see if they're resolved.

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Re: Heroes: Here thar be spoilers (Merg'd Season 2)

Postby sugarhyped » Tue Oct 14, 2008 5:02 am UTC

I'm not sure if I really like any of the characters at all. Hopefully they show more Adam because I still like him (mostly cause he was Sark.) and if they bring back Eccleston, and Niki. That's it.
Spoiler:
I really am starting to want hiro to die. I don't see how he faked that. He can't believe he is a hero if he so easily turns on his best friend. What the fuck? They might pull out something great, but I really think they are making it up as they go along.
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Re: Heroes: Here thar be spoilers (Merg'd Season 2)

Postby annals » Tue Oct 14, 2008 5:21 am UTC

What's with the spoiler tags all of a sudden? I thought this thread didn't need that. Anyway, just in case
Spoiler:
I actually don't believe that Ando's dead, just because that turn is way too sudden to be real. I mean, the writers can't be quite that bad yet, right? Right??
Also, the more Sylar works towards his "redemption" the less likeable he becomes. I only enjoyed the character before because he was cold and evil and Zachary Quinto is awesome.

ALL I WANT IS AN UNREDEEMABLE MANIPULATIVE PSYCHOPATH SERIAL KILLER IS THAT TOO MUCH TO ASK?!?

I do like the evil version of spiderman, though.

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Re: Heroes: Here thar be spoilers (Merg'd Season 2)

Postby Lumpy » Tue Oct 14, 2008 5:36 am UTC

I don't know, I like him better. If he had stayed the same, then it'd be boring and I'd be wanting him to be killed off already.

Yeah, you're right, the spoiler tags are probably unneeded because of the topic title. Knowing the writers, I'm guessing that Hiro might have a plan to use Monroe's blood once they find him, if anything, but they never made apparent that it could be used like that in his storyline and they've been working on the serial so long they're forgetting who did what.

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Re: Heroes: Here thar be spoilers (Merg'd Season 2)

Postby Megatriorchis » Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:24 am UTC

I'm really pissed at Hiro. :x <---see that face? That means I'm pissed.
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Re: Heroes: Here thar be spoilers (Merg'd Season 2)

Postby annals » Tue Oct 14, 2008 7:25 am UTC

Lumpy wrote:I don't know, I like him better. If he had stayed the same, then it'd be boring and I'd be wanting him to be killed off already.

Yeah, you're probably right, but given the choice I'd rather he had died than become a doglike approval seeking lackey (though the half-smile when he turned Claire against her father gave me some hope). Really, the show would have been better if they'd stuck with the original plan to replace the cast every season. More original, anyway.

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Re: Heroes: Here thar be spoilers (Merg'd Season 2)

Postby Masuri » Tue Oct 14, 2008 9:08 am UTC

Bleh.

The bloom is off the rose. This episode was really crap.

Maybe the storylines are too discrete? It's tough to care about any of it when it jumps around so much. When they focus on a single storyline, they do the best, I think. It makes the writers actually have to work at making the characters interact (sort of) believably, instead of just more fancy effects. This season the characters all change based on what the story demands at any given moment until they become unreliable and unpredictable - not in a 'mavericky' kind of way but in a 'this caricature has no personality or motivation but what it has at this given moment and is subject to change without notice.'

I remember Hiro calling Nathan "Flying Man" in season one and that's what he is. There's no person there, it's just a Nathan-shaped repository for the power of flight. Ditto for all the other characters. The only one I feel isn't totally hollow is HRG and I think that's because he has to be more real because he has no power. It's easier to write him believably.

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Re: Heroes: Here thar be spoilers (Merg'd Season 2)

Postby SlyReaper » Tue Oct 14, 2008 10:35 am UTC

I used to really like Hiro and Ando, but this season they're just acting like a air of incompetent bufoons. And WTF with the stabbage? I thought he was just going to do his time trickery to make Ando disappear to somewhere safe, and Knox would grudgingly accept it, thinking he had actually killed him.

GAH! This is ridiculous. Hiro doesn't have the power to heal, and nobody we know does either (since it turns out Linderman actually IS just an illusion). So that means Ando actually IS dead. I think they must have cut out a huge chunk of the story there because that was just too jarring and confusing.

On the plus side though, I'm glad they finally got rid of Peter. His superhero complex was one of the more annoying parts of the show. Let's hope he stays drugged up forever, eh?
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Re: Heroes: Here thar be spoilers (Merg'd Season 2)

Postby Jack Saladin » Tue Oct 14, 2008 11:50 am UTC

... Fuck this show. I'm officially not watching any more.

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Re: Heroes: Here thar be spoilers (Merg'd Season 2)

Postby Nath » Tue Oct 14, 2008 12:26 pm UTC

Huh. I'm all for surprising deaths and character twists, but this is completely not how to write them. Joss Whedon's work has some examples of the former done correctly, and Babylon 5 has some examples of the latter.

However, I'm not convinced that the writers of Heroes are that grossly incompetent. Bag of fake blood + trick sword + generous dose of sedatives + sci-fi-watching time traveler = very surprised, apparently dead Ando. That would be an annoying gimmick, but a forgivable one.

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Re: Heroes: Here thar be spoilers (Merg'd Season 2)

Postby Chen » Tue Oct 14, 2008 12:54 pm UTC

Nath wrote:However, I'm not convinced that the writers of Heroes are that grossly incompetent. Bag of fake blood + trick sword + generous dose of sedatives + sci-fi-watching time traveler = very surprised, apparently dead Ando. That would be an annoying gimmick, but a forgivable one.


Well he didn't do any time stopping before he stabbed him so I don't think thats the way out. Now he could go back in time and get an Ando from back then and just bring HIM back to the future with him. Its going to be something like that I bet. Its still dumb.

As for the rest of the episode, HRG has gone a bit too far it seems. Being strict and whatever for the betterment of your family, fine. But he BLATENTLY used his daughter this time and seemed so insincere about the "apology" afterwards. Previous seasons I can empathize with him and see that Claire was just being spoiled. But this last one I can't understand how she wasn't more pissed at him...unless of course she's just bottling it all up.

Also seems we have a LOT of mind control/manipulation people sprouting up. There was always Parkman and his dad, but now there's father Petrelli and that puppetmaster guy. I also don't understand what Claire's mother's idea was to go to that guy's place if she knew what he could do...

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Re: Heroes: Here thar be spoilers (Merg'd Season 2)

Postby pseudoidiot » Tue Oct 14, 2008 12:56 pm UTC

Well, the season started out promising, but it's going downhill fast. Gah!

I really don't think Ando's dead either, but any ways I can think of for Hiro to have faked it all seem contrived. So, we'll see.
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Re: Heroes: Here thar be spoilers (US Edition)

Postby Sprocket » Tue Oct 14, 2008 1:55 pm UTC

dyzzy wrote:Found this on Digg.

[edit]It's an apology from Tim Kring about the stupid romances, to name one. Sorry, should have elaborated.[/edit]

Well, at least they're not oblivious.
I found the article missed the point, and like he was saying "oh our fans don't want story telling ,they want action." And that is not true at all! We want story telling, we just want GOOD story telling. Plus I hate it when they start a thing and then ignore it, and they seem to have written out that boy Claire liked entirely with no explanation.

So far this season is KINDA better, but it's a bit rediculous as well.
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Re: Heroes: Here thar be spoilers (Merg'd Season 2)

Postby Endless Mike » Tue Oct 14, 2008 3:30 pm UTC

Jack Saladin wrote:... That's not any simpler. At all.

The problem with this show is, most definitely, that the writers are simply not very intelligent people. And without intelligent writers, you cannot have intelligent characters, and without intelligent characters, your show will very quickly become very boring.

Sorry, Heroes writers. All I'm saying is, you're stupid. It's nothing personal.

And people wonder why I rail against Jeph Loeb in the comic forum. HE'S A TERRIBLE WRITER.

I finally caught up on this season on Hulu and good god. There's not a single original idea. I mean, Mohinder IS Brundlefly. It's like they're not even trying anymore.

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Re: Heroes: Here thar be spoilers (Merg'd Season 2)

Postby SlyReaper » Tue Oct 14, 2008 3:54 pm UTC

This season of Heroes is both original and interesting. However, the bits that are interesting aren't original, and the bits that are original aren't interesting.
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Re: Heroes: Here thar be spoilers (Merg'd Season 2)

Postby mosc » Tue Oct 14, 2008 5:42 pm UTC

did my tivo miss an episode? The last one I saw ended with adam being dug up. Am I 1 behind?
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Re: Heroes: Here thar be spoilers (Merg'd Season 2)

Postby apricity » Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:18 pm UTC

mosc wrote:did my tivo miss an episode? The last one I saw ended with adam being dug up. Am I 1 behind?

Yeah, there was one last night. It's on nbc.com.
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Re: Heroes: Here thar be spoilers (Merg'd Season 2)

Postby Jirin » Tue Oct 14, 2008 7:42 pm UTC

Season three hasn't done much for me so far.

It's like they overreacted to criticism that season two moved too slow, and instead decided to rush everything.

They rushed things so much they had to do a lot of retrospective continuity. Oh, Claire won't die if you steal her power, in fact she can't die period! Sylar is Peter's brother! And did we mention, he's not doing it just to make himself superpowerful out of feelings of inadequacy? He's actually an addict, and beyond the addiction is an okay guy. That's why he murdered Mohinder's father, and decided to blow up New York. Even though all of that is contradicted by the 'Sylar is president' future in season one.

They're dropping plot-bombs every other scene. Don't they know that if it weren't for the slow character building episodes at the start of season one, we wouldn't have even given a crap what happened to Claire, or what Noah's past was? Those slow episodes are needed to make the important plot episodes mean something. They're randomly changing the established personalities of characters (Mohnider, Claire) and using stupidity as a plot device (Hiro, the formula). Instead of pulling out plot twist after plot twist with the desperation of a soap opera they need to strike the balance they found in season one.

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Re: Heroes: Here thar be spoilers (Merg'd Season 2)

Postby Vanguard » Tue Oct 14, 2008 8:17 pm UTC

You all are insane, I thought this episode was one of the best in the season.

The Claire going to take down a villain makes sense. I thought the scene was brilliant as Claire discovered that everyone the company goes to bag n' tag isn't always a level-5 worthy "villain", and they do in fact ruin normal lives.

I do agree some plot twists are being introduced a bit speedy like Nathan's power wasn't natural (or "God Given").

I was fuckin' shocked when Hiro stabbed Ando, I thought that was extremely off, but two things came to mind. One, he still fears Ando from shooting him with red lightning in the future, and it's possible he might go back in time and stop himself from killing ando to prove he's a lot more "badass" than stabbing someone, which Knox might go "liek, whoa d00d", and can be useful.

I loved the Vortex scene where Sylar semi-saved Claire. I thought that has a bundle worth of developement.

You assholes needs to stop critisizing just to critisize (Yay for spelling, don't judge). Yes, it's a downgrade from Season 1. Yes it's an upgrade from Season 2.

Is it bad? Not by any means. Watch, enjoy, shut the fuck up.
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Re: Heroes: Here thar be spoilers (Merg'd Season 2)

Postby Mat » Tue Oct 14, 2008 9:22 pm UTC

What the fuck? I was expecting Hiro to somehow fake Ando's death but like everyone else said, it didn't look like that happened. I think that was the worst episode so far.

Claire seeking out that guy made no sense apart from to further the plot. Her choice of villian is the only one who can kill her, yet he is probably the most harmless out of all the ones we've seen - he apparently just killed one guy by accident. Hardly worthy of "level 5"... and I don't know what she was hoping to accomplish by tasering the guy.

While I'm glad Maia is being killed off, at this stage it doesn't make any difference because the majority of the characters behave just as stupidly. Unless they explain it by introducing a character whose power is to turn everyone around them into mindless idiots I don't see this show recovering. :(

Masuri wrote:This season the characters all change based on what the story demands at any given moment until they become unreliable and unpredictable - not in a 'mavericky' kind of way but in a 'this caricature has no personality or motivation but what it has at this given moment and is subject to change without notice.'

I remember Hiro calling Nathan "Flying Man" in season one and that's what he is. There's no person there, it's just a Nathan-shaped repository for the power of flight. Ditto for all the other characters. The only one I feel isn't totally hollow is HRG and I think that's because he has to be more real because he has no power. It's easier to write him believably.

Agreed.

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Re: Heroes: Here thar be spoilers (Merg'd Season 2)

Postby Endless Mike » Tue Oct 14, 2008 9:42 pm UTC

It was established pretty early that Claire wouldn't die from Sylar taking her powers since she was still alive in the future despite him having taken them.

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Re: Heroes: Here thar be spoilers (Merg'd Season 2)

Postby sugarhyped » Tue Oct 14, 2008 9:46 pm UTC

oh, another issue.
Since when does Hiro have the power to move people with his mind? I thought he has the power to travel through time and space and now he can zap Adam in and out of the coffin as he pleases. It's stupid, I think it is weirder than Sylar losing all his powers except for telekinesis which doesn't make logical sense because I don't believe he was born with it.
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Re: Heroes: Here thar be spoilers (Merg'd Season 2)

Postby Exotria » Tue Oct 14, 2008 9:54 pm UTC

sugarhyped wrote:oh, another issue.
Since when does Hiro have the power to move people with his mind? I thought he has the power to travel through time and space and now he can zap Adam in and out of the coffin as he pleases. It's stupid, I think it is weirder than Sylar losing all his powers except for telekinesis which doesn't make logical sense because I don't believe he was born with it.


I think they just do that as a faster version of Hiro stopping time and 'taking the time' to stuff him back in the coffin before he unfreezes time. Doing it this way takes up less screentime with mundane activities.
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Re: Heroes: Here thar be spoilers (Merg'd Season 2)

Postby Klapaucius » Tue Oct 14, 2008 10:09 pm UTC

sugarhyped wrote:oh, another issue.
Since when does Hiro have the power to move people with his mind? I thought he has the power to travel through time and space and now he can zap Adam in and out of the coffin as he pleases. It's stupid, I think it is weirder than Sylar losing all his powers except for telekinesis which doesn't make logical sense because I don't believe he was born with it.


As the other person said, it was his timespace ability, from the perspective of everyone else. It's the equivalent of showing Clark Kent run into a phone booth, then Superman flying out, without showing Clark fumble with his shirt inside. The writer trusts that nobody will think Clark Kent and Superman were making out in there.
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Re: Heroes: Here thar be spoilers (Merg'd Season 2)

Postby Vanguard » Tue Oct 14, 2008 10:10 pm UTC

Exotria wrote:
sugarhyped wrote:oh, another issue.
Since when does Hiro have the power to move people with his mind? I thought he has the power to travel through time and space and now he can zap Adam in and out of the coffin as he pleases. It's stupid, I think it is weirder than Sylar losing all his powers except for telekinesis which doesn't make logical sense because I don't believe he was born with it.


I think they just do that as a faster version of Hiro stopping time and 'taking the time' to stuff him back in the coffin before he unfreezes time. Doing it this way takes up less screentime with mundane activities.


That's exactly how I figured it.
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Re: Heroes: Here thar be spoilers (Merg'd Season 2)

Postby MiB24601 » Tue Oct 14, 2008 10:12 pm UTC

Endless Mike wrote:It was established pretty early that Claire wouldn't die from Sylar taking her powers since she was still alive in the future despite him having taken them.


In the first season, Claire was still alive in the future because HRG set her up with a fake identity and hid her. Sylar only found her when he was pretending to be Nathan, as in the altered future we were shown, Peter had stopped Sylar from succeeding in gaining Claire's power in 2006. After Sylar successfully attacked Claire in the first season future episode, we did not see Claire anymore, seemingly indicating that Claire was killed when Sylar gained her powers.
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Re: Heroes: Here thar be spoilers (Merg'd Season 2)

Postby Wolf » Tue Oct 14, 2008 10:20 pm UTC

I mainly just can't believe they killed Ando. I mean, I LIKED Ando. He had a brain! And actually tried to help his friend instead of just going "OH I HAVE POWERS TIME TO SAVE THE WORLD OOPS I MESSED UP" all of the time like other characters.

I like the idea posted above that Hiro will go back in time and stop himself. Because Hiro without Ando just isn't nearly as good.
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Re: Heroes: Here thar be spoilers (Merg'd Season 2)

Postby Torvaun » Tue Oct 14, 2008 10:47 pm UTC

Am I the only one who was really creeped out by Hiro basically torturing Adam into doing what he wants by repeatedly threatening him with being buried alive for who knows how long? Yeah, it was pretty bad when Hiro put him in there in the first place. But this was a whole other level of brutal.
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Re: Heroes: Here thar be spoilers (Merg'd Season 2)

Postby Vanguard » Tue Oct 14, 2008 10:50 pm UTC

Torvaun wrote:Am I the only one who was really creeped out by Hiro basically torturing Adam into doing what he wants by repeatedly threatening him with being buried alive for who knows how long? Yeah, it was pretty bad when Hiro put him in there in the first place. But this was a whole other level of brutal.


I don't see it as especially cruel, he didn't/can't die so to Hiro it's just imprisonment.

And that scene was kind of funny.
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