Avengers: Endgame

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Re: Avengers: Endgame

Postby mosc » Mon Jun 03, 2019 1:19 pm UTC

Spoiler:
I love the outrage and plot hole discussions here. You wanted a comic book movie? It wouldn't be even some semblance of close to the source material if it wasn't filled with ridiculous plot points. You're not going to dangle things like time travel around and have it make sense. Time travel defies every part of physics we can explain. "Appearing" in another time displaces matter and space. This seems to me like a particle accelerator experiment than a realistic means of movement but whatever. Hulk LITERALLY waved his hand at your fact based exercise.


Also I think spoilering anything on page 3+ of this thread is rather silly at this point.

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Re: Avengers: Endgame

Postby Zohar » Mon Jun 03, 2019 2:12 pm UTC

speising wrote:How does Cap
Spoiler:
summoning lightning fit with Thors realization that the hammer is only a focus for his innate powers from Ragnarok, anyway?

Probably doesn't fit, but looks cool? That's a lot of what this movie was about.
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Re: Avengers: Endgame

Postby SecondTalon » Mon Jun 03, 2019 2:48 pm UTC

mosc wrote:Also I think spoilering anything on page 3+ of this thread is rather silly at this point.

Hey, mosc? Don't be an asshole.

The "Use Spoilers" rule is there because, ultimately, I am very lazy and don't want to think too hard. I don't want to be some arbiter of "It has now been precisely three weeks since it first opened in London, where the premier was, (though it had a worldwide release two days later) and now every aspect can be freely discussed without fear of spoiling it because I guess go fuck yourself if you have a weird job and kids or a weird pay schedule or whatever"

Saying "Spoil things reasonably - ie if it's in the trailer it's fine, if it's in the first 20-30 minutes of the film it's probably fine, if it's in the final climax then spoiler that shit" is the easiest, laziest way of doing it.

Lazy is also throwing people out of High Culture who thumb their nose at this rule, as it saves me the trouble of finding some rule they actually broke - see the "Don't be a Dick" rule I put in specifically for that.

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Re: Avengers: Endgame

Postby Yakk » Mon Jun 03, 2019 4:18 pm UTC

speising wrote:How does Cap
Spoiler:
summoning lightning fit with Thors realization that the hammer is only a focus for his innate powers from Ragnarok, anyway?

Have you ever ridden a tricycle? Or a balance bike?
Spoiler:
The Hammer could train Thor to use lightning powers; it itself channeling lightning in order to train Thor how to use his own powers is quite reasonable.

Now, the fact that Hel used to use it makes this questionable. But maybe it also contains death powers that Thor never tried to use.

And once you learn to ride a bike, you never forget it.
Spoiler:
I appreciate the lack of idiot ball in this movie.

In Infinity War, a lot of heroes carried idiot balls. "Oh, my pride" or "oh, one life" when there where trillions of lives on the line (and billions on Earth).

This movie had a bunch of desperate plans that where stopped by reasonable things that you might not have forseen.

About the only large idiot ball was "why not go back in time to get more Pym particles to reduce our failure state" -- and even that could be explained as (a) something you could use if the first mission attempt fails (as was done in the movie) at little additional risk, and (b) an extra risk that everything else would rest on.

On the other hand, their strategy had a failure case of 1 - (product of success chance); even a relatively high risk single move that would remove that cascade would be worthwhile.
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Re: Avengers: Endgame

Postby Pfhorrest » Mon Jun 03, 2019 7:04 pm UTC

speising wrote:How does Cap
Spoiler:
summoning lightning fit with Thors realization that the hammer is only a focus for his innate powers from Ragnarok, anyway?

Spoiler:
"Whosoever holds this hammer, if he be worthy, shall possess the power of Thor." Odin stripped Thor of his powers in the first Thor movie and enchanted the hammer to give whoever holds it Thor's powers (if they be worthy).

Now, I'm not sure how that meshes with Thor continuing to have his powers after the hammer was destroyed, unless the granting of Thor-power is permanent so long as you've held the hammer (while being worthy) at least once. In which case, does Cap now permanently have Thor power? Or maybe, because Thor is Thor, getting his powers back by holding the hammer just turned his natural powers back on permanently, while anyone else only gets them while holding the hammer.
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Re: Avengers: Endgame

Postby SecondTalon » Mon Jun 03, 2019 8:17 pm UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:
speising wrote:How does Cap
Spoiler:
summoning lightning fit with Thors realization that the hammer is only a focus for his innate powers from Ragnarok, anyway?

Spoiler:
"Whosoever holds this hammer, if he be worthy, shall possess the power of Thor." Odin stripped Thor of his powers in the first Thor movie and enchanted the hammer to give whoever holds it Thor's powers (if they be worthy).

Now, I'm not sure how that meshes with Thor continuing to have his powers after the hammer was destroyed, unless the granting of Thor-power is permanent so long as you've held the hammer (while being worthy) at least once. In which case, does Cap now permanently have Thor power? Or maybe, because Thor is Thor, getting his powers back by holding the hammer just turned his natural powers back on permanently, while anyone else only gets them while holding the hammer.
Spoiler:
There's nothing in there about Thor losing his power when the hammer is wielded by anyone else. Presumably, Odin lifted the requirement on Thor wielding it to access his own powers.

There's also the assertion that Mjolnir is to Thor as a feather is to Dumbo. Thor couldn't use the hammer and thus only thought he couldn't access his more exciting powers. Given how often he was hit with a car and seemed no worse for the wear, he seemed to retain a fair amount of his Asgardian fortitude and resilience.

That said - did Capt. and Thor throw lighting at the same time, or did Thor throw it when Capt. had the hammer?
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Re: Avengers: Endgame

Postby Ranbot » Wed Jun 05, 2019 8:13 pm UTC

SecondTalon wrote:
Pfhorrest wrote:
Spoiler:
"Whosoever holds this hammer, if he be worthy, shall possess the power of Thor." Odin stripped Thor of his powers in the first Thor movie and enchanted the hammer to give whoever holds it Thor's powers (if they be worthy).

Now, I'm not sure how that meshes with Thor continuing to have his powers after the hammer was destroyed, unless the granting of Thor-power is permanent so long as you've held the hammer (while being worthy) at least once. In which case, does Cap now permanently have Thor power? Or maybe, because Thor is Thor, getting his powers back by holding the hammer just turned his natural powers back on permanently, while anyone else only gets them while holding the hammer.
Spoiler:
There's nothing in there about Thor losing his power when the hammer is wielded by anyone else. Presumably, Odin lifted the requirement on Thor wielding it to access his own powers.

There's also the assertion that Mjolnir is to Thor as a feather is to Dumbo. Thor couldn't use the hammer and thus only thought he couldn't access his more exciting powers. Given how often he was hit with a car and seemed no worse for the wear, he seemed to retain a fair amount of his Asgardian fortitude and resilience.

That said - did Capt. and Thor throw lighting at the same time, or did Thor throw it when Capt. had the hammer?

Spoiler:
I'd agree and add to the point about Thor's inherent Asgardian fortitude, he wasn't only hit by cars... he was hit by Hulk at least once in The Avengers (2012) without holding Mjolnir. Mjolnir-less Thor was hit plenty by Hulk in the arena fight in Ragnarok too... but maybe that doesn't count being part of the sequence to unlocking his powers, but even so... it indicates there was always more to Thor's power than a hammer.

I'm a little fuzzy on how Mjolnir senses worthiness in the one who tries to wield it. Cap isn't Asgardian. He is the result of a WWII science experiment. Others have tried to lift Mjolnir in the MCU and failed. Is there any other detail than what Pfhorrest quoted? Did I miss MCU's FAQ for wielding Mjolnir? What allowed Cap to wield in that moment? Besides that it makes a great cinematic moment, or is that the answer? I'm more curious about that than whether Thor and Cap can do hammer-time powers at the same time.

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Re: Avengers: Endgame

Postby Zohar » Wed Jun 05, 2019 8:35 pm UTC

Spoiler:
I believe it's just a general "if you're worthy" thing, doesn't have anything to do with the physical strength of the wielder.
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Re: Avengers: Endgame

Postby Pfhorrest » Wed Jun 05, 2019 9:08 pm UTC

Ranbot wrote:
Spoiler:
I'd agree and add to the point about Thor's inherent Asgardian fortitude, he wasn't only hit by cars... he was hit by Hulk at least once in The Avengers (2012) without holding Mjolnir. Mjolnir-less Thor was hit plenty by Hulk in the arena fight in Ragnarok too... but maybe that doesn't count being part of the sequence to unlocking his powers, but even so... it indicates there was always more to Thor's power than a hammer.

I'm a little fuzzy on how Mjolnir senses worthiness in the one who tries to wield it. Cap isn't Asgardian. He is the result of a WWII science experiment. Others have tried to lift Mjolnir in the MCU and failed. Is there any other detail than what Pfhorrest quoted? Did I miss MCU's FAQ for wielding Mjolnir? What allowed Cap to wield in that moment? Besides that it makes a great cinematic moment, or is that the answer? I'm more curious about that than whether Thor and Cap can do hammer-time powers at the same time.

Spoiler:
I think it's pretty clear that by the end of the first Thor movie, Thor has his innate powers back, whether or not he's actively holding Mjolnir; which is why I was commenting on how maybe just picking up Mjolnir the once permanently re-activated his powers. But at the same time, anyone else who picks up Mjolnir also gets Thor powers; but is that just temporary while holding it, or permanent? It's probably just temporary, but the question is interesting. (And even if it is temporary, there seems to be some leeway, as Cap is able to throw Mjolnir, and then recall it to his hand like Thor does, so he has some kind of power related to it even when he's not literally holding it, at least for a moment).

Also it's not clear that Cap only became worthy to wield Mjolnir right at that moment in Endgame. When he "tried" to lift it in Age of Ultron, it wobbled, which it shouldn't have done at all if he wasn't worthy. I originally interpreted that as "Cap is almost worthy". But others on the internet have interpreted it as showing that Cap is worthy, but intentionally faked inability to lift it to spare Thor's feelings at the time (note Thor's aghast expression at even the little wobble); but when it came time to really get things done in Endgame, Cap didn't fake inability anymore and just did the thing, which is why Thor shouts "I knew it!" Thor suspected all along that Cap could lift Mjolnir.
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Re: Avengers: Endgame

Postby rmsgrey » Thu Jun 06, 2019 1:42 am UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:
Ranbot wrote:
Spoiler:
I'd agree and add to the point about Thor's inherent Asgardian fortitude, he wasn't only hit by cars... he was hit by Hulk at least once in The Avengers (2012) without holding Mjolnir. Mjolnir-less Thor was hit plenty by Hulk in the arena fight in Ragnarok too... but maybe that doesn't count being part of the sequence to unlocking his powers, but even so... it indicates there was always more to Thor's power than a hammer.

I'm a little fuzzy on how Mjolnir senses worthiness in the one who tries to wield it. Cap isn't Asgardian. He is the result of a WWII science experiment. Others have tried to lift Mjolnir in the MCU and failed. Is there any other detail than what Pfhorrest quoted? Did I miss MCU's FAQ for wielding Mjolnir? What allowed Cap to wield in that moment? Besides that it makes a great cinematic moment, or is that the answer? I'm more curious about that than whether Thor and Cap can do hammer-time powers at the same time.

Spoiler:
I think it's pretty clear that by the end of the first Thor movie, Thor has his innate powers back, whether or not he's actively holding Mjolnir; which is why I was commenting on how maybe just picking up Mjolnir the once permanently re-activated his powers. But at the same time, anyone else who picks up Mjolnir also gets Thor powers; but is that just temporary while holding it, or permanent? It's probably just temporary, but the question is interesting. (And even if it is temporary, there seems to be some leeway, as Cap is able to throw Mjolnir, and then recall it to his hand like Thor does, so he has some kind of power related to it even when he's not literally holding it, at least for a moment).

Also it's not clear that Cap only became worthy to wield Mjolnir right at that moment in Endgame. When he "tried" to lift it in Age of Ultron, it wobbled, which it shouldn't have done at all if he wasn't worthy. I originally interpreted that as "Cap is almost worthy". But others on the internet have interpreted it as showing that Cap is worthy, but intentionally faked inability to lift it to spare Thor's feelings at the time (note Thor's aghast expression at even the little wobble); but when it came time to really get things done in Endgame, Cap didn't fake inability anymore and just did the thing, which is why Thor shouts "I knew it!" Thor suspected all along that Cap could lift Mjolnir.


Worthiness (Thor, Age of Ultron, Ragnarok):
Spoiler:
All we really know about how Mjolnir decides who can wield it is what we saw when Odin enchanted it in Thor - he gave the quote (or at least part of it - it's been a while since I watched) about "whosoever wields this hammer, if he be worthy, shall have the power of Thor" - and what we see in Thor and Age of Ultron with a significant number of people trying to wield it and failing (including Thor himself at one point), one person (Cap) making it wobble and two (Thor and *spoiler*) actually moving it around effortlessly. And, of course Hela demonstrated power over the hammer too, though I doubt she was really worthy... So it seems Mjolnir evaluates worthiness somehow, isn't limited strictly to Asgardians, can be bypassed or overwhelmed by someone powerful enough, and is pretty picky about who gets to use it.


Mjolnir in Endgame (Age of Ultron, Endgame, Civil War):
Spoiler:
There are a few theories about what changed between Age of Ultron and Endgame to prevent Steve from lifting Mjolnir in the former, but let him wield it effectively in the latter. One is that Cap always could, but chose not to in Ultron; another is that he had the potential in Ultron, but didn't really want to, so wasn't actually able to; and then there's the theory that knowing about Bucky having killed the Starks but keeping it secret from Tony meant he wasn't worthy until it was brought into the open in Civil War.

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Re: Avengers: Endgame

Postby SecondTalon » Thu Jun 06, 2019 1:42 am UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:
Ranbot wrote:
Spoiler:
I'd agree and add to the point about Thor's inherent Asgardian fortitude, he wasn't only hit by cars... he was hit by Hulk at least once in The Avengers (2012) without holding Mjolnir. Mjolnir-less Thor was hit plenty by Hulk in the arena fight in Ragnarok too... but maybe that doesn't count being part of the sequence to unlocking his powers, but even so... it indicates there was always more to Thor's power than a hammer.

I'm a little fuzzy on how Mjolnir senses worthiness in the one who tries to wield it. Cap isn't Asgardian. He is the result of a WWII science experiment. Others have tried to lift Mjolnir in the MCU and failed. Is there any other detail than what Pfhorrest quoted? Did I miss MCU's FAQ for wielding Mjolnir? What allowed Cap to wield in that moment? Besides that it makes a great cinematic moment, or is that the answer? I'm more curious about that than whether Thor and Cap can do hammer-time powers at the same time.

Spoiler:
I think it's pretty clear that by the end of the first Thor movie, Thor has his innate powers back, whether or not he's actively holding Mjolnir; which is why I was commenting on how maybe just picking up Mjolnir the once permanently re-activated his powers. But at the same time, anyone else who picks up Mjolnir also gets Thor powers; but is that just temporary while holding it, or permanent? It's probably just temporary, but the question is interesting. (And even if it is temporary, there seems to be some leeway, as Cap is able to throw Mjolnir, and then recall it to his hand like Thor does, so he has some kind of power related to it even when he's not literally holding it, at least for a moment).

Also it's not clear that Cap only became worthy to wield Mjolnir right at that moment in Endgame. When he "tried" to lift it in Age of Ultron, it wobbled, which it shouldn't have done at all if he wasn't worthy. I originally interpreted that as "Cap is almost worthy". But others on the internet have interpreted it as showing that Cap is worthy, but intentionally faked inability to lift it to spare Thor's feelings at the time (note Thor's aghast expression at even the little wobble); but when it came time to really get things done in Endgame, Cap didn't fake inability anymore and just did the thing, which is why Thor shouts "I knew it!" Thor suspected all along that Cap could lift Mjolnir.

Spoiler:
Thor’s “I knew it!” said to me that Capt always could but didn’t in the shenanigans for .. Capt. reasons. Modesty and humility, for one. Not wanting to show up Thor. Not wanting to give Tony more shit to rant about.
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Re: Avengers: Endgame

Postby Chen » Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:21 am UTC

SecondTalon wrote:
Spoiler:
Thor’s “I knew it!” said to me that Capt always could but didn’t in the shenanigans for .. Capt. reasons. Modesty and humility, for one. Not wanting to show up Thor. Not wanting to give Tony more shit to rant about.


Spoiler:
Thematically it makes sense but the way they filmed it really didnt make it seem that way...or that Steve is a fantastic actor which we know he isnt

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Re: Avengers: Endgame

Postby sardia » Sun Jun 09, 2019 2:59 pm UTC

Chen wrote:
SecondTalon wrote:
Spoiler:
Thor’s “I knew it!” said to me that Capt always could but didn’t in the shenanigans for .. Capt. reasons. Modesty and humility, for one. Not wanting to show up Thor. Not wanting to give Tony more shit to rant about.


Spoiler:
Thematically it makes sense but the way they filmed it really didnt make it seem that way...or that Steve is a fantastic actor which we know he isnt

My favorite is how Steve grows through time in the movies. Things that use to make him a fish out of water, now he handles no sweat.

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Re: Avengers: Endgame

Postby Yakk » Mon Jun 10, 2019 2:50 pm UTC

Chen wrote:
SecondTalon wrote:
Spoiler:
Thor’s “I knew it!” said to me that Capt always could but didn’t in the shenanigans for .. Capt. reasons. Modesty and humility, for one. Not wanting to show up Thor. Not wanting to give Tony more shit to rant about.


Spoiler:
Thematically it makes sense but the way they filmed it really didnt make it seem that way...or that Steve is a fantastic actor which we know he isnt

Spoiler:
Steve had a long time to get ready to do it. I think he could act with 20 minutes of prep. All he has to do is tense his muscles without picking it up, and say "nothing".

There was enough of a hint there that I assumed that Captain had faked it. It would avoid embarrassing everyone there. Picking it up would serve no purpose. It budged, so he knew, and that was enough.
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Re: Avengers: Endgame

Postby Pfhorrest » Wed Jul 17, 2019 10:50 pm UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:
Ranbot wrote:I'm going to cross my fingers and hope it's a clever inside joke/troll on fans.

I've seen it suggested from readers of the comics that that character is a trickster villain who may be lying about his origins, but
Spoiler:
Nick Fury himself says that he's "from Earth, just not our Earth" and that "the snap tore a hole in our dimension" so it sounds like Fury at least believes that multiverse stuff is going on.

Having seen Spider-Man: Far From Home now, that second line from the trailer I mentioned is not actually in the movie, and it turns out that (MAJOR Far From Home spoilers)
Spoiler:
Mysterio is in fact a trickster lying about everything, and "Nick Fury" isn't only just repeating what Mysterio told him but isn't actually the real Nick Fury to begin with, so there is no multiverse stuff actually confirmed whatsoever
. However the Disney+ series' very settings apparently confirm the mechanism in question anyway, so whatever.
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Re: Avengers: Endgame

Postby Ranbot » Sat Jul 20, 2019 11:34 pm UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:Having seen Spider-Man: Far From Home now, that second line from the trailer I mentioned is not actually in the movie, and it turns out that (MAJOR Far From Home spoilers)
Spoiler:
Mysterio is in fact a trickster lying about everything, and "Nick Fury" isn't only just repeating what Mysterio told him but isn't actually the real Nick Fury to begin with, so there is no multiverse stuff actually confirmed whatsoever
.

I saw Spiderman Far From Home today. It was good, it was fun, and...
Spoiler:
...I'm glad the alternative universe/singularity thing was a cover story Mysterio made up.

Pfhorrest wrote:However the Disney+ series' very settings apparently confirm the mechanism in question anyway, so whatever.

It bothers me less if other networks explore the concept, but I hope the Hollywood MCU maintains the firewall. We'll see.

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Re: Avengers: Endgame

Postby Alex111 » Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:04 am UTC

It was the best movie in 2019, especially if you have watched it in the cinema in the first 2 days after release.

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Re: Avengers: Endgame

Postby stuckinguilt » Thu Aug 15, 2019 8:11 am UTC

Is this one worth seeing if you've not really kept up with the Marvel movies? I've seen like... the Iron Mans and the first Avengers but everyone's pushing me to get it seen.

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Re: Avengers: Endgame

Postby Pfhorrest » Fri Aug 16, 2019 8:58 pm UTC

stuckinguilt wrote:Is this one worth seeing if you've not really kept up with the Marvel movies? I've seen like... the Iron Mans and the first Avengers but everyone's pushing me to get it seen.

I would not recommend seeing Endgame with only Iron Man and the first Avengers under your belt. There's literally dozens of characters you've never seen before who the movie is counting on you already knowing about, and therefore doesn't really give you any new introduction to. And a bunch of events of previous movies that are pretty essential to making sense of most of the scenes of this movie, on top of that.
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Re: Avengers: Endgame

Postby rmsgrey » Sat Aug 17, 2019 2:37 am UTC

stuckinguilt wrote:Is this one worth seeing if you've not really kept up with the Marvel movies? I've seen like... the Iron Mans and the first Avengers but everyone's pushing me to get it seen.


Absolute minimum, you should see Captain America: The Winter Soldier, Thor: The Dark World, Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 1, Ant Man and the Wasp, and Avengers: Infinity War in addition to the first Avengers - and that's just to avoid going "what just happened?" or "why did that happen?" during Endgame itself (and that's skipping things like Doctor Strange or Captain Marvel that introduce important characters you probably won't recognise when they turn up in Endgame, but their roles are pretty self-explanatory, so you don't actually need to know them in advance). Infinity War comes with its own list of things to watch first (in particular Civil War, which picks up a lot of things from Age of Ultron, but also a bunch of other Phase 3 movies).

If you want to play it safe, you can probably skip The Incredible Hulk ("Thunderbolt" Ross turns up again in later MCU movies, but the events of Incredible Hulk aren't relevant to those appearances), and Far From Home comes after Endgame, so you can skip that, but otherwise, there's a lot of continuity that ultimately feeds into Endgame.

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Re: Avengers: Endgame

Postby Chen » Mon Aug 19, 2019 10:21 am UTC

You could (and probably should) skip Thor the Dark World. Its not very good and its not SUPER important to the respective part of Endgame.

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Re: Avengers: Endgame

Postby Pfhorrest » Wed Aug 21, 2019 3:37 am UTC

I'm rewatching Infinity War, and something strikes me as highly inconsistent with Endgame:
Spoiler:
the whole Asgardian refugee ship gets blown up, and there's no indication that Thanos let half of them go on an escape craft or anything like that, so how is it that there's a whole population of surviving Asgardians and other survivors of Ragnarok like Korg, who would have been on that same ship, living in Tønsberg/New Asgard by the start-ish of Endgame?
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Re: Avengers: Endgame

Postby ConMan » Wed Aug 21, 2019 4:20 am UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:I'm rewatching Infinity War, and something strikes me as highly inconsistent with Endgame:
Spoiler:
the whole Asgardian refugee ship gets blown up, and there's no indication that Thanos let half of them go on an escape craft or anything like that, so how is it that there's a whole population of surviving Asgardians and other survivors of Ragnarok like Korg, who would have been on that same ship, living in Tønsberg/New Asgard by the start-ish of Endgame?

Spoiler:
Allegedly, before Thanos got around to killing everyone on the ship, Valkyrie helped most of its passengers get to escape pods. Remember, in Infinity War Thanos was mainly concerned about getting the stones and he didn't care much about anyone who didn't get directly in his way, so it's fair to assume that he'd let them escape as long as he was sure they hadn't taken the Tesseract with them.
pollywog wrote:
Wikihow wrote:* Smile a lot! Give a gay girl a knowing "Hey, I'm a lesbian too!" smile.
I want to learn this smile, perfect it, and then go around smiling at lesbians and freaking them out.


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