Man of Steel

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Man of Steel

Postby charliepanayi » Tue Jun 11, 2013 8:16 am UTC

So it's out later this week, first reviews are in, put your before/after viewing thoughts here.

On the downside, I don't much like Zack Snyder. Plus the track record for Superman films so far is one and a half good films out of five. On the upside, Amy Adams and Michael Shannon are both brilliant and if nothing else I hope we get a great villain in Shannon's Zod.
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Re: Man of Steel

Postby Adam H » Tue Jun 11, 2013 3:52 pm UTC

Prediction #1: This will be the 2nd highest grossing movie of the summer behind Iron Man 3.

Prediction #2: My wife will hate it with the fury of a thousand suns for totally disrespecting Smallville.
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Re: Man of Steel

Postby Izawwlgood » Tue Jun 11, 2013 5:10 pm UTC

I am extremely excited for this movie, based on the trailers. My impression is that they are finally moving towards a better understanding of what Superman is and how to handle him as a character, insofar as recognizing that having him save derailing trains or towns from exploding volcano's isn't really that interesting. I liked the last Superman, and have always been a fan of the character.

So, ib4 I cry tears of rage, hopefully not?

EDIT: Nope; I fucking loved it. It has it's flaws and a few plot holes, and despite being all about 'Superman will lead humanity to the bright future of awesomeness', it was really just 'Superman pummels the shit out of badguys DBZ style', but it was still great. It was wonderfully shot, and it's nice to finally see special effects able to accurately portray how Superman moves/fights (see DBZ comment). It had a number of great nods to older comics, and I left the theater gushing. Would see again.
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Re: Man of Steel

Postby OP Tipping » Sun Jun 16, 2013 2:16 pm UTC

Actually pretty good. They made some interesting and unusual choices. Crowe does what he is supposed to do: I still rate him highly as an actor.
Even Kevin Costner does okay: probably the only really good performance I ever saw from him.
The visuals are Snyderish (grainy, misty) but it grows on you. You can detect the Nolan touches in the dialogue.

I dare say some people won't be happy about a redhead Lane.

There were a few cutesy nods to the previous films but there was one quote from Faora-Ul ("You're weak. You're unsure of yourself") that I am pretty sure was a nod to a very tidy bit of dialogue from Kill Bill 2:

As you know, l'm quite keen on comic books. Especially the ones about superheroes. I find the whole mythology surrounding superheroes fascinating. Take my favorite superhero, Superman. Not a great comic book. Not particularly well-drawn. But the mythology... The mythology is not only great, it's unique. [...] Now, a staple of the superhero mythology is, there's the superhero and there's the alter ego. Batman is actually Bruce Wayne, Spider-Man is actually Peter Parker. When that character wakes up in the morning, he's Peter Parker. He has to put on a costume to become Spider-Man. And it is in that characteristic Superman stands alone. Superman didn't become Superman. Superman was born Superman. When Superman wakes up in the morning, he's Superman. His alter ego is Clark Kent. His outfit with the big red "S", that's the blanket he was wrapped in as a baby when the Kents found him. Those are his clothes. What Kent wears - the glasses, the business suit - that's the costume. That's the costume Superman wears to blend in with us. Clark Kent is how Superman views us. And what are the characteristics of Clark Kent. He's weak... he's unsure of himself... he's a coward. Clark Kent is Superman's critique on the whole human race. Sorta like Beatrix Kiddo and Mrs. Tommy Plimpton. ”


No doubt some serious DC-head among you will pop up to tell me that in fact both quotes reference some specific quote from the comic book.

Spoiler:
Kryptonite
is one element (no pun intended) from the common Superman mythology that was avoided by Man of Steel.

An element that I _thought_ was going to be avoided was
Spoiler:
Clark avoiding detection as Superman by wearing glasses
, but in the end that came into it...

EDIT: And here's my contribution on the Cheezburger network. Am I allowed to post that? http://cheezburger.com/7576573184
a) Please explain the specific MEDICAL reason for ordering this MEDICATION !
b) Please state the nature of your ailment or injury.
c) One a scale of one to ten, how would you rate your pain?
d) Please state the nature of the medical emergency.

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Re: Man of Steel

Postby Izawwlgood » Sun Jun 16, 2013 4:21 pm UTC

Spoiler:
Yeah, while kryptonite wasn't brought up, he does get weaker when dealing with the kryptonian atmosphere on the ship.
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Re: Man of Steel

Postby Mighty Jalapeno » Sun Jun 16, 2013 5:44 pm UTC

It was far less hand-wavey-plot-hole-ignoringly stupid than I had expected, though I love almost everyone associated with this. Also, wow, Diane Lane's still kinda hot.

I liked the composition of the film a lot, but I was a little disappointed that both Snyder and Nolan opted for "SHAKEY CAM MEANS IT'S REALISTIC!!! Oh me yarm LOOK HOW REALISTIC THIS SCENE IS THE CAMERA IS SHAKING SOOOOO MUCH!" technique. It gets old after the third bout of seasickness.

Spoiler:
Also, I really appreciate how Lois Lane, Ace Reporter... is FINALLY written as smart enough to not only figure out who Superman is, but to do it BEFORE HE'S EVEN SUPERMAN. And how probably half a dozen people know who he is (and if Lios shouting 'CLARK!' all the time is any indication, probably hundreds), and they all seem cool with protecting the secret.

I was kind of annoyed that the only female military officer in the movie does nothing but LOOK SCARED, ASK FOR HELP and GIGGLE AT SUPERMAN'S HAWTNESS. I expected that from Nolan, but come on, Snyder... really?


8.5/10

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Re: Man of Steel

Postby charliepanayi » Sun Jun 16, 2013 5:49 pm UTC

I came out of this with a bit of a headache which kind of sums things up really.

Spoiler:
- It was probably appropriate the film started with Russell Crowe, the world's most humourless actor in a very po-faced film.
- The opening segment on Krypton seemed to go on too long in my opinion.
- I thought Henry Cavill was a perfectly good Clark/Superman, though he must be hoping for better luck in his career than his predecessors.
- It goes without saying but Michael Shannon was excellent, hopefully he gets a lot more attention from the wider world after this.
- Amy Adams *swoons*
- The action stuff was definitely impressive, even if after a while it started to feel like I'd been bludgeoned over the head repeatedly.
- Clark's father died because he went back to rescue the dog?!
- I know a kiss is obligatory in these films but this one seemed especially crowbarred in, surely they could have found a better place for it.
- Superman killing Zod? I can see why it's annoyed some people, but at the same time you could see the anguish it caused him to do it. Certainly an interesting move anyway.


Overall, I'm not too sure. Not a bad film by any means, but something was missing for me.
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Re: Man of Steel

Postby Izawwlgood » Sun Jun 16, 2013 6:20 pm UTC

charliepanayi wrote:Not a bad film by any means, but something was missing for me.
The thing that let me down the most, was how the general MO of Superman and his father and Jor'el was 'Be the shining example that will lead humanity to join you in the sun', a kind of 'restore krypton by being virtuous and leading by example and letting the rest of the cosmos become excellent as well'. Which is great! Which is all about what I think the better Superman arcs are touching on!

What we got was a lot of lip service, and a lot of Superman punching things. I thought it was cool, and love the groundwork that's been laid here, but wish the script had reflected less 'Punchpunchlaserblastboom!' and more 'Superman saves the world by letting the world save itself'
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Re: Man of Steel

Postby Chen » Mon Jun 17, 2013 11:49 am UTC

I liked the film. Good action (maybe a bit too much) and the plot wasn't god awful or anything. As an origin story it did quite well I think.

Spoiler:
The only part I didn't really get was why Zod was such an ass about Earth. Firstly he said he had been to other colonies and found them all dead. Tends to imply they could easily have terraformed another world instead of earth. Next, he adjusted to the earth atmosphere in a couple of hours at best. Why not just live on earth like that? You'd be gods to the mortals there anyways as would every kryptonian you brought back. Seems pretty in line with Zod's thinking. If he had gone with either of those choices he probably could have convinced Clark to go along with it (Clark willingly gave himself up at the start to save Earth). Instead he explicitly tries to kill them all, forcing Clark to fight him.

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Re: Man of Steel

Postby Mighty Jalapeno » Mon Jun 17, 2013 1:24 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote: but wish the script had reflected less 'Punchpunchlaserblastboom!' and more 'Superman saves the world by letting the world save itself'

Just like Jesus... and see how entertaining that would have been?

I just want to know how advanced their fabric technologies are. Superman's outfit withstands more than a minute within a beam that we just saw CUT THE WORLD IN HALF. Why is nothing else made out of that material?

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Re: Man of Steel

Postby Chen » Mon Jun 17, 2013 2:46 pm UTC

I don't think the beam was actually cutting through the planet though was it? It seemed to be kinda just passing through it without damaging the ground otherwise there'd be plenty of other problems even if you turned it off.

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Re: Man of Steel

Postby Mighty Jalapeno » Mon Jun 17, 2013 3:24 pm UTC

Well, technically true, there was no lava, but it was still a beam of PHENOMENAL power, blah blah blah... I dunno. Not a scratch on the suit. It irked me. SHOW A DIRT STAIN.

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Re: Man of Steel

Postby Chen » Mon Jun 17, 2013 4:37 pm UTC

Mighty Jalapeno wrote:Well, technically true, there was no lava, but it was still a beam of PHENOMENAL power, blah blah blah... I dunno. Not a scratch on the suit. It irked me. SHOW A DIRT STAIN.


Do you watch Big Bang Theory? They have a whole bit about how Superman cleans his super-sweat off his suit.

In short, its a magic suit just like in the comic books :P

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Re: Man of Steel

Postby Lucrece » Tue Jun 18, 2013 3:27 am UTC

Mighty Jalapeno wrote:
Izawwlgood wrote: but wish the script had reflected less 'Punchpunchlaserblastboom!' and more 'Superman saves the world by letting the world save itself'

Just like Jesus... and see how entertaining that would have been?

I just want to know how advanced their fabric technologies are. Superman's outfit withstands more than a minute within a beam that we just saw CUT THE WORLD IN HALF. Why is nothing else made out of that material?


The studio actually partnered with a Christian outreach website to market the film to pastors in a special program under the pretext that the Superman story is an allegory to Jesus. Or so CNN reported. At the very end of the report, after all the stupid religious pandering, at least the reporter finally mentioned that the creator for Superman was Jewish.

And I love how pastors jump to making this movie a Christian allegory despite the obvious fact that Jesus was a pacifist. But American men don't care for pacifists, so we'll overlook that small detail...Jesus would totally say "Girl, hold my earrings."
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Re: Man of Steel

Postby Thrasymachus » Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:02 am UTC

Chen wrote:I liked the film. Good action (maybe a bit too much) and the plot wasn't god awful or anything. As an origin story it did quite well I think.

Spoiler:
The only part I didn't really get was why Zod was such an ass about Earth. Firstly he said he had been to other colonies and found them all dead. Tends to imply they could easily have terraformed another world instead of earth. Next, he adjusted to the earth atmosphere in a couple of hours at best. Why not just live on earth like that? You'd be gods to the mortals there anyways as would every kryptonian you brought back. Seems pretty in line with Zod's thinking. If he had gone with either of those choices he probably could have convinced Clark to go along with it (Clark willingly gave himself up at the start to save Earth). Instead he explicitly tries to kill them all, forcing Clark to fight him.


Spoiler:
Kal-El's very existence was a heresy for Zod, as he was the first natural Kryptonian child in centuries. Zod's whole identity is wrapped up in Krypton's practice of genetically engineering people for specific social roles, seeing as his role is the protector for that society. Kal-El was Jor-El's thumb in the eye of that practice. Remember, Zod and Jor-El were friends, and they didn't break that friendship even when Zod disrupted the proceedings at the Kryptonian Council. They didn't even really break when Jor-El revealed his plans to spirit away the codex. It was only when Jor-El revealed that he and Kara conceived Kal the old-fashioned way that Zod placed himself firmly and irrevocably against Jor-El. Zod felt betrayed twice, first by the Council for allowing Krypton's destruction, then by Jor-El for essentially disavowing Kryptonian society. Utterly defeating and destroying Kal-El was nearly as important to him as getting back the Genesis Chamber and the Codex, both as final revenge for Jor-El's "heresy" and "betrayal," and as the ultimate vindication of Kryptonian superiority.

Part of the issue, I feel, is the inevitable comparison to Superman II's Zod. That guy was a cartoon character who wanted to lord it over humans. This Zod couldn't care less about humans. He wants the Codex and a Genesis Chamber to rebuild Krypton, and he wants to crush and kill Kal-El. He has no reason to compromise with or care about humans at all, and if killing them all hurts Kal, so much the better. The only reason he was "nice" to Kal or the people of Earth in the first place was so he could secure the Codex and the Genesis Chamber. Though I do think this rather personal motivation against Kal-El could have been stressed better in the latter half of the movie.

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Re: Man of Steel

Postby Tyndmyr » Sat Jun 22, 2013 12:09 am UTC

Mighty Jalapeno wrote:It was far less hand-wavey-plot-hole-ignoringly stupid than I had expected, though I love almost everyone associated with this. Also, wow, Diane Lane's still kinda hot.

I liked the composition of the film a lot, but I was a little disappointed that both Snyder and Nolan opted for "SHAKEY CAM MEANS IT'S REALISTIC!!! Gee Willikers LOOK HOW REALISTIC THIS SCENE IS THE CAMERA IS SHAKING SOOOOO MUCH!" technique. It gets old after the third bout of seasickness.


This. So much this. It took me out of the movie entirely because 3d + piles of shaky cam = hard to actually focus on anything.

It was less terrible than I anticipated, but I had some serious beefs with it. For one, the collateral damage. I get it, things are going to break in DC punch outs...but Superman has always kind of been about saving people. He should at least make a cursory effort to, yknow, not kill thousands of people. The utter lack of caring about civilian deaths wasn't just a one time thing, either. It was...kind of over and over again. Time to deliberately punch zod through occupied skyscrapers when ya'll were in an already desolated area...it felt like the makers were just going for MOAR EXPLOSIONS without any consideration for, yknow, why this is all happening.

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Re: Man of Steel

Postby cephalopod9 » Sat Jun 22, 2013 6:49 am UTC

I think Zack Snyder
Spoiler:
actually wanted to make a Dragon Ball Z movie.


I liked a lot of the style, and Clark Kent's tragic childhood.
I can live with the shaky cam and the over done CG, although it'd be better without those.

The movie's major problem had to do with plot structure
Spoiler:
and the way it cut off at a really grim part (after an 80's movie style "fist fight that just keeps going for no reason") and there wasn't much resolution or optimism at the end of the movie.
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Re: Man of Steel

Postby EdgarJPublius » Sat Jun 22, 2013 8:24 am UTC

I liked the epic sci-fi movie that poked its way into parts of the film more than the superman bits.

That said, the superman bits weren't all that bad really, at least it was trying to ape some of the better modern superman stories, albeit in typical backwards 'appealing to the lowest common denominator' Hollywood style.

I have high hopes for a 'Dark Knight' style sequel featuring a proper Mad Scientist Lex Luthor (as opposed to the Mad Real Estate Agent Lex Luthor we've had in film recently)
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Re: Man of Steel

Postby Mighty Jalapeno » Sat Jun 22, 2013 3:39 pm UTC

They did blow up a lot of Lexcorp trucks, so here's hoping!

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Re: Man of Steel

Postby SecondTalon » Sat Jun 22, 2013 8:39 pm UTC

OP Tipping wrote:There were a few cutesy nods to the previous films but there was one quote from Faora-Ul ("You're weak. You're unsure of yourself") that I am pretty sure was a nod to a very tidy bit of dialogue from Kill Bill 2:

As you know, l'm quite keen on comic books. Especially the ones about superheroes. I find the whole mythology surrounding superheroes fascinating. Take my favorite superhero, Superman. Not a great comic book. Not particularly well-drawn. But the mythology... The mythology is not only great, it's unique. [...] Now, a staple of the superhero mythology is, there's the superhero and there's the alter ego. Batman is actually Bruce Wayne, Spider-Man is actually Peter Parker. When that character wakes up in the morning, he's Peter Parker. He has to put on a costume to become Spider-Man. And it is in that characteristic Superman stands alone. Superman didn't become Superman. Superman was born Superman. When Superman wakes up in the morning, he's Superman. His alter ego is Clark Kent. His outfit with the big red "S", that's the blanket he was wrapped in as a baby when the Kents found him. Those are his clothes. What Kent wears - the glasses, the business suit - that's the costume. That's the costume Superman wears to blend in with us. Clark Kent is how Superman views us.


Just... Gah. Fucking no. Peter Parker occasionally dressed up as Spider-Man. That's the only factual statement made. Clark is the person. Superman is who he has to be. Clark only does it because no one else can - he'd quit if he could, but he doesn't think he can. Batman occasionally dresses up as some rich guy and doesn't beat up criminals for a few hours because he has to. If he had his way, he'd just fight crime all the time as a giant bat. Bruce Wayne is Batman's disguise. Superman is Clark's disguise - it's not his fault he's an alien name Kal-El, because he's really some rural farm boy from Kansas who wants to be a journalist.

Which is the whole reason The Big Blue Boyscout and Angsty McFlyingRat's friendship works - because they both recognize in each other that they actually are what the other wants to be - Clark just wants to be a regular guy with a regular job but can't for lots of reasons - moral center notwithstanding, he simply hears everyone in trouble all the time and knows he can stop a lot of it. Batman wants to save everyone, everywhere, but can't because he has these stupid human failings - he gets tired, he gets hurt, he has to eat. They'd trade places.

But fuck - the guy is Clark Kent of Kansas. Superman is goofy shit he puts up with to help people, but it's not him. He knows he's faster, stronger, harder, healthier. But he doesn't ever think he's better - it wouldn't even occur to him to think that. That's goddamn Clark Kent.
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Re: Man of Steel

Postby Mighty Jalapeno » Sun Jun 23, 2013 1:31 am UTC

I AGREE BOTH BOTH SIDES RIGHT NOW. THIS IS MESSED UP.

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Re: Man of Steel

Postby Zarq » Sun Jun 23, 2013 9:55 am UTC

Mighty Jalapeno wrote:I AGREE BOTH BOTH SIDES RIGHT NOW. THIS IS MESSED UP.


That's because using the names doesn't really work for this. There's 2 versions of 'Clark Kent'. There's the boy growing up in Kansas, and there's the awkward, clumsy reporter. Both the cape-and-spandex outfit as the awkward clumsiness are disguises. Superman and Daily Planet-Clark Kent are alter-egos. His real identity is somewhere in between. He's a boy who grew up in Kansas and is the last of his race. The real identity is Clark-El or Kal Kent.

(I'm basing this on the John Byrne version of the origin).
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Re: Man of Steel

Postby Christo » Mon Jun 24, 2013 11:33 am UTC

This is perhaps a new take on the controversy:
Spoiler:
If Superman and Zod could punch each other through buildings without so much as scratching one another, then I simply don't buy that it would even be POSSIBLE for Supes to break his neck the way he did.
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Re: Man of Steel

Postby Mighty Jalapeno » Mon Jun 24, 2013 1:36 pm UTC

You missed the scene where he removed Zod's Plot Armor.

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Re: Man of Steel

Postby rmsgrey » Mon Jun 24, 2013 11:26 pm UTC

Kal-El grew up on Earth, soaked in the rays of the Sun, breathed the air, and took over thirty years before learning to fly (and must have been about 7 when his super-senses kicked in). Zod breathed the air for a second and the super-senses kicked in, and soaked up sunlight for maybe half an hour and had the full range of powers without his supersuit...

The movie basically started twice - there was all that business on Krypton, and then there was that guy on a fishing boat who helped rescue people off an oil-rig and had flashbacks to his childhood. I think it would have been a much more interesting movie if, instead of showing off their CGI skills on Krypton, they'd just started on the boat, and, if they really felt the need to show the end of Krypton, Kal El's departure, and the fate of Zod, done it by fleshing out the exposition from Jor El's cyber-ghost and Zod later in the movie.

I can't decide whether it's like they just copied the start of Superman automatically, or whether it's like they were afraid people would see guy on a boat and think they were in the wrong movie if they didn't re-tell the familiar story first. I mean, how many people are there in the entire world who don't know the basic "last survivor of a dying planet sent to Earth and brought up by loving foster-parents" backstory?

Christo wrote:This is perhaps a new take on the controversy:
Spoiler:
If Superman and Zod could punch each other through buildings without so much as scratching one another, then I simply don't buy that it would even be POSSIBLE for Supes to break his neck the way he did.


A) super-healing - scratches and bruises heal incredibly fast
B) being thrown through a building is the equivalent of being thrown through a pile of cardboard boxes for a regular human
C) I don't think much of Zack Snyder

***

There were good things about the movie - the Krypton opening was good; it just didn't belong to this movie. I basically enjoyed it from the fishing boat to the handover - the flashbacks worked well for establishing Clark's character, and the contemporary scenes established his current life as a drifter, and showed his discovery of his heritage. And I liked what they did with Lois too. Then Zod crashes the party and suddenly it's not about Kal El finding his destiny and a reason to come out of the shadows and settle down any more - suddenly it's about the end of the world and Zack Snyder auditioning to direct the Doomsday/Death of Superman movie. Or maybe the next Hulk film. After restaging Smith vs Neo without the rain, we get the end of Zod's part of the movie, and what should have been a pivotal moment in the movie, but they'd spent too much time showing off what the special effects budget could do, so there was no opportunity to give it the follow-up it deserved, and instead we get the end of the movie that we had been watching before Zod turned up, in a slightly rushed form as Clark Kent turns up to work at the Daily Planet (apparently, he managed to get the qualifications, experience and portfolio to land a job as a reporter for a major newspaper either while travelling anonymously or in the bit of the movie that got cut out to make way for Zod... Aside from the magic-wand being waved to get him there, I liked the final scene of Clark Kent starting at the Planet.

Overall, it feels like there were two different films going on here - a science fiction comic-book epic with space aliens duking it out and the US military (with no input from the rest of the world) deciding which side to back, and a serious, artistic movie that transcends the comic book source material to tell the tale of an outsider forced to live off the grid because he can't bring himself to stop saving people's lives when they need it but fears how people react to his secret, and how he finds his place through uncovering his heritage and through finding someone who gives him a reason to settle down. Personally, I think the latter is a much more interesting movie, but the whole question of "can the world accept a Superman?" ended up being settled in a brief exchange (apparently the answer is "when he's the only weapon you have to prevent humanity's extinction, sure.") almost as an afterthought...

Anyway, yeah, good things about the movie:

The casting was excellent, there were some nice scenes, the acting was good, and it ended with Superman/Clark Kent set up for the future, so we don't need to worry about yet another retelling of the origin next time.

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Re: Man of Steel

Postby Christo » Tue Jun 25, 2013 10:54 am UTC

rmsgrey wrote:
Christo wrote:This is perhaps a new take on the controversy:
Spoiler:
If Superman and Zod could punch each other through buildings without so much as scratching one another, then I simply don't buy that it would even be POSSIBLE for Supes to break his neck the way he did.


A) super-healing - scratches and bruises heal incredibly fast
B) being thrown through a building is the equivalent of being thrown through a pile of cardboard boxes for a regular human
C) I don't think much of Zack Snyder


All right. How about this:
Spoiler:
If he could twist his neck far enough to break it, why couldn't he twist it far enough so that Zod couldn't fry the people?!?!


I agree with your broader strokes about the movie. Except I wouldn't say it felt like two movies; I'd say it felt like ten or more. I didn't feel like there was any unity of theme or plot. It just all seemed really scatter-shot. Environmental issues, social engineering, destiny, morality, faith, individualism, family, mercy--all of these things were raised but not really explored. Cavill, who was awesome, would deliver pithy little lines between buildings falling down, but they didn't add up to anything.
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Re: Man of Steel

Postby cephalopod9 » Wed Jun 26, 2013 1:16 am UTC

Spoiler:
Everyone's getting hung up on The Family of Four that just absolutely had to be saved.
The point is it's a breaking point. That's wehre Superman decides there's not a way to save Earth, and All of the Humans, not just those few in immediate, visible peril, that doesn't involve destroying Zod.

The neck snapping is still kind dumb, and a misplaced and unrewarding climax for the film.
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Re: Man of Steel

Postby Mighty Jalapeno » Wed Jun 26, 2013 1:30 am UTC

Spoiler:
It really was :( I remember leaving the theatre saying "Huh. Well, maybe they'll put the ending for THIS movie in the NEXT one, because... this didn't have one. It just had a place where the movie... stopped."

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Re: Man of Steel

Postby Prefanity » Thu Jun 27, 2013 8:45 am UTC

I reread Superman: Birthright after seeing this movie (since Goyer's best dialogue in the film was lifted from Birthright and All-Star Superman) and I came to wish that this series had been adapted for the screen instead of what we got.

Spoiler:
I think the biggest hang-up I have with the film is that as much as I sometimes liked Cavill as Clark, I don't feel any weight behind him putting on the costume and killing Zod. Because of this, the actions scenes just become tedious (Not to mention incredibly off-putting because of the amount of collateral damage Clark causes without so much as a furrowed brow in concern for the citizens of Smallville or Metropolis). Granted, I might have felt that anyway, considering their sufficiently long enough to leave the human characters standing around with nothing to do. This is particularly evident with Lois, who feels shoehorned into a number of scenes. I get that she's a force of nature in her own right, but do we really need to be shown this through her executing a bunch of Zod's crew? Couldn't she have done something more in character?

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Re: Man of Steel

Postby Tyndmyr » Fri Jun 28, 2013 9:04 pm UTC

rmsgrey wrote:Kal-El grew up on Earth, soaked in the rays of the Sun, breathed the air, and took over thirty years before learning to fly (and must have been about 7 when his super-senses kicked in). Zod breathed the air for a second and the super-senses kicked in, and soaked up sunlight for maybe half an hour and had the full range of powers without his supersuit...


That annoyed be as well. Also, the payoff for the setup of the scene of him being disoriented as a kid wasn't much. That's kind of a lot of setup to explain getting a coupla punches in during a fight that isn't the finale. I

can't decide whether it's like they just copied the start of Superman automatically, or whether it's like they were afraid people would see guy on a boat and think they were in the wrong movie if they didn't re-tell the familiar story first. I mean, how many people are there in the entire world who don't know the basic "last survivor of a dying planet sent to Earth and brought up by loving foster-parents" backstory?


Honestly, I think a Superman movie could utterly skip the setup at this point. They don't have to, but everyone really does know it. It'd be ok to tell a different story that doesn't go over it in detail.

Overall, it feels like there were two different films going on here - a science fiction comic-book epic with space aliens duking it out and the US military (with no input from the rest of the world) deciding which side to back, and a serious, artistic movie that transcends the comic book source material to tell the tale of an outsider forced to live off the grid because he can't bring himself to stop saving people's lives when they need it but fears how people react to his secret, and how he finds his place through uncovering his heritage and through finding someone who gives him a reason to settle down. Personally, I think the latter is a much more interesting movie, but the whole question of "can the world accept a Superman?" ended up being settled in a brief exchange (apparently the answer is "when he's the only weapon you have to prevent humanity's extinction, sure.") almost as an afterthought...


I would have preferred the first movie, but I agree that the combination of the two is less impressive than either would have been.

Just like Super 8, actually.

And yeah, the ending doesn't have any weight. It feels too much like they just ran out of time and budget and called it a day. If him choosing not to kill had been a major part of the plot, then yeah, it could have had some gravitas, but as it was, I just recognize it as "this is what they think I should care about as the climax". It's really a good illustration of the problems of three act film making. This film hits the buttons for that, with increasing tension, resolution, etc, but it does so poorly. It doesn't use appropriate setup to get the right emotional feel to it.

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Re: Man of Steel

Postby DreadArchon » Sun Jul 07, 2013 1:45 am UTC

I like blasty space operas better than superhero stuff anyway. I loved this movie. :P

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Re: Man of Steel

Postby Mighty Jalapeno » Sun Jul 07, 2013 1:59 am UTC

"I don't really like superhero movies. I loved Man Of Steel."

That sums it up well, I think!

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Re: Man of Steel

Postby DreadArchon » Sun Jul 07, 2013 4:50 pm UTC

Mighty Jalapeno wrote:"I don't really like superhero movies. I loved Man Of Steel."

That sums it up well, I think!


There, there. Maybe Justice League will be an actual superhero movie and you guys will love it.

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Re: Man of Steel

Postby rmsgrey » Sun Jul 07, 2013 4:59 pm UTC

DreadArchon wrote:
Mighty Jalapeno wrote:"I don't really like superhero movies. I loved Man Of Steel."

That sums it up well, I think!


There, there. Maybe Justice League will be an actual superhero movie and you guys will love it.


It doesn't have to be a superhero movie, but having it be a coherent movie, with good pacing and a coherent vision - it would also help having reasonable consistency and depth, but just having a decent movie would be enough. Man of Steel misses that mark.

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Re: Man of Steel

Postby AvatarIII » Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:50 am UTC

Mighty Jalapeno wrote:"I don't really like superhero movies. I loved Man Of Steel."

That sums it up well, I think!


I love Superhero movies, AND I love MoS, go figure.

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Re: Man of Steel

Postby Tyndmyr » Mon Jul 08, 2013 3:04 pm UTC

rmsgrey wrote:
DreadArchon wrote:
Mighty Jalapeno wrote:"I don't really like superhero movies. I loved Man Of Steel."

That sums it up well, I think!


There, there. Maybe Justice League will be an actual superhero movie and you guys will love it.


It doesn't have to be a superhero movie, but having it be a coherent movie, with good pacing and a coherent vision - it would also help having reasonable consistency and depth, but just having a decent movie would be enough. Man of Steel misses that mark.


This. I like plenty of movies that are not superhero movies. I also like many superhero movies. The problem isn't what genre it is, it's the quality involved. Any genre has it's good and bad films. MoS is not the worst of movies, but it's definitely very flawed, as was Green Lantern, which seems to have died on the cutting room floor. This makes me worried about a Justice League movie. Batman is solid. He's also retired, and Bale might not be the Batman anymore, so they might have to reboot that. Green Lantern and MoS were both pretty weak, and seem to inhabit different universes. Frankly, it's going to be VASTLY harder than Avengers to integrate the very different chars and worlds into a coherent whole...and with Avengers, it was already challenging.

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Re: Man of Steel

Postby UniqueScreenname » Tue Jul 09, 2013 12:34 am UTC

Mighty Jalapeno wrote:
Spoiler:
I was kind of annoyed that the only female military officer in the movie does nothing but LOOK SCARED, ASK FOR HELP and GIGGLE AT SUPERMAN'S HAWTNESS. I expected that from Nolan, but come on, Snyder... really?

Spoiler:
She wasn't supposed to be strong, really. The whole movie pretty much showed that the humans would be doomed without Superman. If they tried to stop them at all, it either resulted in Superman having to save them or their deaths. I don't think it had much to do with her being female, although that "hot" line did nothing but irk me (from a script standpoint it's useless and not even funny).
Mighty Jalapeno wrote:I just want to know how advanced their fabric technologies are. Superman's outfit withstands more than a minute within a beam that we just saw CUT THE WORLD IN HALF. Why is nothing else made out of that material?
I agree since my number 1 complaint is that he only had his shirt off in one scene. Give a girl a break, why don't ya?

My opinions:
Spoiler:
-The Krypton sequence took way too long.
-If you're going to let your father die to keep your secret, why do you save anyone else? Do you just constantly forget why you did that?
-The scene where Lara was standing in the fire and the one where Clark blew up the drill were some of the most beautiful scenes in recent memory.
-I thought the relationship between Clark and Lois was super contrived. She likes him because he saved her. He likes her...why? As far as I can tell, it's because she's the only one who knows who he is. Not a good enough reason in my book.
-I was impressed with the way they for the most part let him keep himself a secret without every human having prosopagnosia.
-I liked that Lois' constant nature of being in the way actually had a purpose this time.
-OH MY GOD CHEESY DIALOGUE!!!

I did like it, but I have a feeling Batman will continue to be the shining star of DC movies, and I may just stick to Marvel fulltime since those are done.
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Re: Man of Steel

Postby Izawwlgood » Tue Jul 09, 2013 1:16 am UTC

On the Lois Lane front;
Spoiler:
In Red Sun, there's a fantastic line where he says something about remembering the fateful meeting between the two of them, and being forever unsure if it was a trick of the light, the subtle increase of her pulse and touch of perspiration that indicated she was attracted to him, or her pheromones that happened to work on him. The point was that sometimes love is illogical, and at the very least, these incarnations of Lois Lane paint her as an incredibly talented and insightful individual, which is a nice change from the somewhat airheaded Lois Lane I recall from the older comics.


I wouldn't call myself even 'well read' within the Superman mythos, but what I have read and enjoyed felt respected and nodded to in this film.
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Re: Man of Steel

Postby rmsgrey » Tue Jul 09, 2013 3:25 pm UTC

It's still better than Smallville, where for the first few episodes it seems that Clark Kent is in love with Lana Lang because she has a kryptonite necklace - we later discover that it's not the kryptonite; it's that Lana is a Mary Sue, and everyone is in love with the teenager who runs a successful coffee shop in between schoolwork and dating...

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Re: Man of Steel

Postby Adam H » Tue Jul 09, 2013 3:37 pm UTC

UniqueScreenname wrote:-If you're going to let your father die to keep your secret, why do you save anyone else? Do you just constantly forget why you did that?
...
-I thought the relationship between Clark and Lois was super contrived. She likes him because he saved her. He likes her...why? As far as I can tell, it's because she's the only one who knows who he is. Not a good enough reason in my book.
-He let his father die because his father asked him to. Also, people in his hometown would know it was Clark Kent, while everyone else he saved knew him by another name, IIRC.

-He likes Lois because she's haaaawt. Duh. Also, people like saving other people, IMO.
-Adam


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