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Re: Super Smash Bros.

Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 12:07 am UTC
by ACU-LP
I have played several hours worth and never once tripped.

Re: Super Smash Bros.

Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 12:47 am UTC
by headprogrammingczar
ACU-LP wrote:I have played several hours worth and never once tripped noticed when I tripped.

I trip all the time in SSBB. As a result of this (and general lack of non-kiddie titles), I have more GCN hours over the past several months than Wii.

Re: Super Smash Bros.

Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 1:40 am UTC
by Vieto
What is this 'tripping' you guys are being all trippy about? I've never noticed this anywhere in brawl.

Re: Super Smash Bros.

Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 2:19 am UTC
by Durinthal
When you start dashing and fall flat on your face.
Example

I've never been an intensely competitive person (I prefer items, they're more fun), so I don't care about it all that much, but I do see where it can be troublesome. I just wish there was a regular in-game way to turn it off.

Re: Super Smash Bros.

Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 3:30 am UTC
by Vieto
That was amusing, but I've never seen it happen before that video.

Re: Super Smash Bros.

Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 3:32 am UTC
by Stormlock
Holy crap, I don't dash around much and don't play much, I'd thought that only happened to peach (because of the dress) or something. What a stupid thing to put in the game.

Re: Super Smash Bros.

Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 1:36 pm UTC
by Jebobek
They implemented it to stop people from dashing around so much. Its supposed to work like your shield losing energy and stunning you if you over-use it. Where they failed with the competitive gamer is making it random. It would have been better more reliable and fair if you would move constantly slower and slower as you kept dashing around. I don't mind, being a party/casual fighter, but I can understand why all the random things go away in the makings of Brawl mods.

Re: Super Smash Bros.

Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 4:48 pm UTC
by ParanoidDrone
Of course, when one trips, there's only one proper response.

Me: SAKURAI!
Sakurai: *laughs*

Re: Super Smash Bros.

Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 11:45 pm UTC
by Nonmus
I too hate tripping because it automatically makes me lose instantly every time and fills me with rage. This huge game mechanic makes the game completely uplayable and worthless, really. As a pro gamer, I demand perfection.

*uses MetaKnight exclusively because a tier-list told me so*

Re: Super Smash Bros.

Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 12:18 am UTC
by headprogrammingczar
My biggest gripe is that you can't dodge-move in mid-air. For a lot of characters, that was a flat-out superior alternative to up-B for recoveries.

Re: Super Smash Bros.

Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 12:35 am UTC
by superglucose
I like the switch to the new airdodge actually. The old airdodge was only used for two things: 1) recovery (and even then it had very limited use) and 2) wavedashing (which was a bug). The new Airdodge is significantly more useful for recovery because it gives you a better opportunity to dodge arial attacks, or Zelda's whoreballs. With Melee's airdodge I suspect Zelda would be crazy good at edgeguarding.

Re: Super Smash Bros.

Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 6:09 pm UTC
by Shadic
Nonmus wrote:I too hate tripping because it automatically makes me lose instantly every time and fills me with rage. This huge game mechanic makes the game completely uplayable and worthless, really. As a pro gamer, I demand perfection.

Or because it's a worthless game mechanic designed only to randomly screw up a character.
NEXT FEATURE - SNEEZING IN AN FPS GAME. BRILLIANT!

Nonmus wrote:*uses MetaKnight exclusively because a tier-list told me so*

First of all, I'd like to say anybody that uses a character because of their tier location is just being shallow. But secondly, if you think Metaknight isn't superior to.. Basically all of the cast by a long shot, you're insane.

Re: Super Smash Bros.

Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 6:21 pm UTC
by superglucose
To be fair, I started playing Snake because he was #2 on the tier list. My friends saw the tierlist come out and we were wondering why the characters were where they were. I mean, we never doubted Snake or MK were good, and it wasn't like, "Oh, they don't deserve to be #1 and #2" but we were just curious. So I picked up snake and my friend picked up GW. Then after a while we decided that GW would probably go down while Snake was truly *that good*. Ever since I've stuck with my Snake and Falco (who had been added some time before because I loved Fox from SSB 64, and while Fox from SSBB was fun, Falco was just always more fun/better for me), and I've been toying with Marth ever since the game came out.

Re: Super Smash Bros.

Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:22 am UTC
by ACU-LP
Personally I've never seen a tier list and think the things shouldn't exist. Heck, someone I know can beat everyone using only Yoshi.

Re: Super Smash Bros.

Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:28 am UTC
by Stormlock
ACU-LP wrote:Personally I've never seen a tier list and think the things shouldn't exist. Heck, someone I know can beat everyone else I know using only Yoshi.


Fixed that for you. Unless you happened to know the world champion of SSB and he happens to play Yoshi exclusively, which I doubt.

I agree with the sentiment that people put too much stock in tier lists and general consensus- chances are most people never even see the techniques and circumstances that put those characters on those tiers. But that doesn't change the fact that ultimately, if you brought over the two best players in the world and gave one the bottom tier and the other the top tier, the matches would be heavily skewed.

Re: Super Smash Bros.

Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:35 am UTC
by ACU-LP
But there's the problem though; its like a right handed fencer going up against a leftie; you know all the tricks, you know exactly what you've got to do, but because you haven't practiced it (how many people use the lowest tiered characters?), then you can still lose against them despite having a technical advantage.

Re: Super Smash Bros.

Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:47 am UTC
by Stormlock
No, it'd be more like a right handed fencer going up against a guy who practiced a lot but never professionally competed or formally trained. He'll throw the other guy off guard sure; but he'll get his ass handed to him in the long run. Just because they can both kick your ass equally well doesn't mean they're evenly matched.

And if you're actually quite good, you've probably played dozens of matches against EACH character and know every damned move in the game and how to counter it with your character of choice most reliably. There's a significant gap in experience and breadth of knowledge between "I can beat all my friends in best 2 out of 3" and "I can beat all my friends, or the computer at the highest difficulty, with a 99.99% ratio."

Although, I'd imagine tripping makes that ratio impossible for the latest game.

Re: Super Smash Bros.

Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:56 am UTC
by superglucose
Tiers exist. It's not some kind of 'accident' or 'conspiracy' that Metaknight does significantly better in tourneys or that the majority of high level SSBB players consider him the best. Now are tiers or tierlists perfect? No, and no one will say so. There is dissension, differences of opinion, some high level pros think Falco deserves slot 2, some high level pros think Falco needs to drop lower. Olimar jumped 9 places after one tier list.

But to say that, say, Yoshi, is just as all around good as, say, King DeDeDe, is wrong and not true, and it's not because 'no one plays yoshi so no one knows how to use him.' There are great Yoshi players. There's a player in my smash crew who calls himself YoshiLord, and plays as YoshL. He's really good with Yoshi, and even he thinks Yoshi isn't good enough to compete at the tournament level.

The back room, along with everyone else, has always said that tiers aren't the end-all be-all. It comes down to player skill first, then matchups, then tier positions. So if you are really good with Yoshi, you'll beat someone who's worse than you who plays metaknight, because you're a better player. Tiers are just supposed to be a general way of saying, "this is who I think is the best character." The only way to disagree with tiers is to say that all characters are equal, because all tier lists say is "characters are not equal, and I think these are better than those."

Continuing what Storm said, there are people out there who play brawl so well that you wouldn't even be able to KO them once. And I'm the kind of player that looks forward to meeting them and losing to them, getting three stocked by big names such as Mewtwoking and SK92 (I am SO going to the next SCSA).

Re: Super Smash Bros.

Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 5:36 pm UTC
by Shadic
ACU-LP wrote:Personally I've never seen a tier list and think the things shouldn't exist. Heck, someone I know can beat everyone using only Yoshi.

And I could likely kick your ass with Pichu in Melee. But there's no way in hell I'd say Pichu should be anything but bottom tier.

Granted, he's better than Mewtwo.. Urgh.

Re: Super Smash Bros.

Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 7:12 pm UTC
by headprogrammingczar
I was a kickass Mewtwo. That fucker could jump anywhere, and his N-air did 30 damage to anyone near him.

Re: Super Smash Bros.

Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 3:08 am UTC
by Maseiken
superglucose wrote:Tiers exist. It's not some kind of 'accident' or 'conspiracy' that Metaknight does significantly better in tourneys or that the majority of high level SSBB players consider him the best. Now are tiers or tierlists perfect? No, and no one will say so. There is dissension, differences of opinion, some high level pros think Falco deserves slot 2, some high level pros think Falco needs to drop lower. Olimar jumped 9 places after one tier list.

But to say that, say, Yoshi, is just as all around good as, say, King DeDeDe, is wrong and not true, and it's not because 'no one plays yoshi so no one knows how to use him.' There are great Yoshi players. There's a player in my smash crew who calls himself YoshiLord, and plays as YoshL. He's really good with Yoshi, and even he thinks Yoshi isn't good enough to compete at the tournament level.

The back room, along with everyone else, has always said that tiers aren't the end-all be-all. It comes down to player skill first, then matchups, then tier positions. So if you are really good with Yoshi, you'll beat someone who's worse than you who plays metaknight, because you're a better player. Tiers are just supposed to be a general way of saying, "this is who I think is the best character." The only way to disagree with tiers is to say that all characters are equal, because all tier lists say is "characters are not equal, and I think these are better than those."

Continuing what Storm said, there are people out there who play brawl so well that you wouldn't even be able to KO them once. And I'm the kind of player that looks forward to meeting them and losing to them, getting three stocked by big names such as Mewtwoking and SK92 (I am SO going to the next SCSA).

I think this conflict mainly flares up when people act like Tiers and Matchups come before skill and make a big deal out of it when they lose. So then you have the actual winner responding to this with a "Tiers R4 QWEERS" attitude and so on ad infinitum.

Re: Super Smash Bros.

Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 3:33 am UTC
by Shadic
The problem is that people don't understand that tiers mostly become important in higher level play.

Also, they seem to love the illogical argument "Well, I can beat my friend playing Fox when I'm Bowser! HAH! IN YOUR FACE TIERLIST!!!111"

Re: Super Smash Bros.

Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 10:47 pm UTC
by benjhuey
It's natural that an imperfect balance in characters' attributes would occur. Tiers arise from these imperfections, but skill and experience with the game far outweigh any tier list.

That being said, if you worry over tier lists, you're taking the game far too seriously. My feelings are reflected by my never having viewed the tier list until about 2 minutes ago.

Re: Super Smash Bros.

Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2009 12:30 am UTC
by Stormlock
The problem is that skill is based on a learning CURVE. At the end, everyone is really close, so the differences in tier are exaggerated. This, combined with the fact that most people like to think they're at the end of the curve, makes for a lot of stupid misconceptions.

Re: Super Smash Bros.

Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2009 6:26 am UTC
by Red Chili
Solid Snake's kinda grown on me. At first, I thought he was worthless but he's cool now.

Not so much DDD, who I still don't quite like. I can finally play as him decently and I can sorta see why he would be "popular", but the lag just ruins it for me.

Re: Super Smash Bros.

Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 6:44 pm UTC
by Cheese
The only real tier-things that I've ever been really bothered with are Kirby vs Marth in Melee, cause my brother's a good Marth and I'm a good Kirby. With most character pairings, we're rather equal - but his Marth nearly always beats my Kirby, and I put it down to Marth's huge sweeping sword attacks and Kirby's lack of speed in most of his with which to get past the sword. There are a couple of other slightly biased pairs for us to play against each other - my Kirby beats his C. Falcon slightly more often than not - but I agree that almost all of the matches depend on skill rather than character.

Re: Super Smash Bros.

Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 7:01 pm UTC
by superglucose
With Brawl there are a lot more matchup considerations as well. As a (now bad) example, Falco vs Wolf was a terrible matchup for wolf because if Falco grabbed Wolf, it was almost always a stock off Wolf. Stages also play a huge role now, try playing Falco on Lylat Cruise, or against Falco on Jungle Japes. Matchups and stages are both bigger considerations than tiers... but remember, nothing trumps player skill.

Contrary to many beliefs, I like this direction for SSBB. I like that it is really hard for Falco to beat Kirby, because it brings a sort of strategic vibe to the game. In high-level melee matches I almost never saw counterpicking, it was just, "I play Marth, so that's who I'm going to play for every matchup." Now, DSF plays both Snake and MK, depending on the matchup and stage. To me, it's a system that rewards players for being good at the game, and not just one character.

@the guy who tried Snake, everyone talked about how great Snake was, so I picked him up to play him. He is SO much fun... what with the grenade stripping and grenade counters, using mines on platforms that move, dacus, his throws are awesome (as in the animation)... I really like his style. Next time someone runs at you and dash attacks, shield-grab into a backthrow, it's a totally awesome looking throw.

Re: Super Smash Bros.

Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 11:37 pm UTC
by Vieto
4 words: I hate fan spam.

My sister can do 200 damage to me with that weapon alone, no matter my character.

Any suggestions?

Re: Super Smash Bros.

Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 11:46 pm UTC
by superglucose
Vieto wrote:4 words: I hate fan spam.

My sister can do 200 damage to me with that weapon alone, no matter my character.

Any suggestions?


Items off?

But all seriously now, does it cancel out Falco's laser? If not, use that to break it up. As for other options, play Snake and huck grenades at her, or pull a grenade with 'b' whenever she starts hitting you. She'll also 'hit' the grenade, which will go off blowing both of you up. This may seem counter intuitive, but would you rather take 200% or ~15% and have her take ~15% as well? Just remember that Snake is not about the smashes, and that you should try 'tilts' which is basically gently pointing in a direction with the joystick and then hitting attack, rather than 'smashing' in one direction and hitting 'a' at the same time. I recommend using the forward tilt for damage, and the up tilt for killing. Experiment with the range on both, you may find that it's a lot farther than you'd expect.

Re: Super Smash Bros.

Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 12:05 pm UTC
by Vieto
heh, I like the grenade idea.

Re: Super Smash Bros.

Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 4:58 pm UTC
by superglucose
it's called the 'grenade counter' and it's my favorite part about playing Snake. If you can get your shield up it's ~30 times as awesome.

Re: Super Smash Bros.

Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 1:23 am UTC
by jahwn lemonjello
I'm a casual gamer: I didn't even know what a tier list was until this I read this thread. I main (in order of use) Ike, Samus, R.O.B. with a little of a few others (D.K., Peach). I use Ike against people with reflectors especially because Samus can be destroyed by them as she is mostly range. I really need to work on my ZSS; I can have trouble after losing the suit. The one I like a lot about her is that her up.B can hit smash balls well.

Re: Super Smash Bros.

Posted: Wed May 08, 2019 8:17 am UTC
by cyanyoshi
Epic bump to say that I've been enjoying Smash Ultimate a lot lately. Has anyone else gotten into Elite Smash? What do you think about Spirits? Who's your favorite character? Who do you hope gets added as DLC?

Re: Super Smash Bros.

Posted: Thu May 09, 2019 12:26 am UTC
by ConMan
As a not-very-good player, I'm enjoying Ultimate with its barrage of everything. My biggest complaint was the lack of a decent tutorial (apparently if you leave the game running it will go to a demo mode which shows off a lot of the basics, and there's also a Twitter account or something that maybe had some useful info?) - I started the game with pretty much no idea what I should be doing or how I should be doing it and have learned mainly through lots of trial and error.

For Adventure mode, my current main is Pacman because I can control him decently well, but I do also rely heavily on the strength of my spirits (which I have, somewhat obsessively, been teaching all the fighting styles and training up to level 99 regardless of how good a spirit they are). I like Piranha Plant too, and need to play some more Classic Mode to get practice with everyone else.

In terms of who I'd like to see get added, I have always gravitated towards the novelty characters in this kind of game so I'd like to see some more of them, but I know that for most serious players that they'd rather have someone potentially competitive. Professor Layton would be neat (and he's known to be a talented fencer); if I wanted to go down the real obscure rabbithole I'd suggest someone like Consento from DDR.

Re: Super Smash Bros.

Posted: Tue Jun 18, 2019 10:42 pm UTC
by cyanyoshi
So... two things.

First, two more DLC characters were revealed during E3: Dragon Quest's "Hero" and Banjo-Kazooie. The first was was hinted at in datamines for months, but the second came as a genuine shock. Sure, there were rumors about Banjo being revealed at E3, but the last time there was a convincing leak involving Banjo (namely, the "Grinch leak"), it was faked.

Second, there will be an official online tournament at the end of June, with the winner receiving a free trip to EVO! I had a lot of fun competing at the last North America Opens, and I feel relatively good about my chances of being in the top 8 in my region this time around, with a little luck. Why not give it a shot and have some fun?