Mass Effect 3 (Seriously, Use Spoilers People!)

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Dauric
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby Dauric » Mon Mar 12, 2012 1:52 am UTC

Koa wrote:
Spoiler:
I guess I just found it far too contrived for Anderson and Shepard to make it through, with the illusive man there and waiting. I don't mind it on reflection, but it was one more pill to swallow.

A few other things: Harbinger talks as though we will't possible understand what reapers are, and yet it's explained to us in a few minutes by the catalyst. Organic life is killed so that synthetic life doesn't kill organic life. Why does the catalyst even care? The way I see it, life is life, and organic life will always form naturally when given the right circumstances. If synthetics kill all organic life, fine. The universe is a big place. I don't see what forcing a species to "transcend" accomplishes. Better yet, why don't your reapers harvest synthetic life when it gets out of control, then? That makes a fuckload more sense to me. Not only is synthetic life more translatable to a reaper form, but there may be a instance when organics don't actually make a bloodthirsty synthetic life (i.e. geth).

Why will't I shoot this kid's neck? Okay, I doubt my rooty-tooty point'n'shooty would harm his ethereal form, but seriously. Everything I've done in this games, uniting the galaxy and saving lives, all at the mercy of this insane entity.


Spoiler:
I did find Anderson's presence contrived. Especially since my ME1 I appointed him as counselor so when the fuck did he go back to earth and leave it to Udina? Should have seen that as impending doom on the importance of choices...

I can't get too concerned about the motives of the Citadel Child, as I'm not terribly interested in the motives of cardboard cutouts in movie theater lobbies. His insubstantiality never stopped me from unloading multiple shots in him anyway (with that shiny prototype pistol that can fire indefinitely). And I refuse to call the Citadel Child the Catalyst. Shepard was the Catalyst. Shepard was the transformative figure uniting races that would never have worked together. The Citadel Child not only represents the status quo, but actually refused to initiate change necessitated by Shepard's presence and forced Shepard to initiate the change.
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby Koa » Mon Mar 12, 2012 1:54 am UTC

I'm just giving it a name.

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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby Dauric » Mon Mar 12, 2012 1:56 am UTC

Koa wrote:HULK just giving it a name.

That last rant wasn't directed at you, it just seemed a convenient point to engage in a rant I had at my TV during that sequence. Apologies if I should have clarified.
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby Ghostbear » Mon Mar 12, 2012 2:26 am UTC

Dauric wrote:No argument, but I don't see it as a "Either/ Or".

Spoiler:
There's a old adage about the most effective lies being wrapped in a veil of truth. Indoctrination relies as much on self-deception as it does on thought modification as demonstrated by both Saren and Illusive, in fact convincing both of them to shoot themselves in the end involves Shepard breaking through the self-deception that's stopping them from seeing that they have been modified. Illusive had every legitimate reason to want to be on the Citadel in person -and- the Reapers had him controlled.

Spoiler:
Yeah, that's what I was trying to get at with the "more safely keep him under control" bit; the indoctrination would work best on him if he thought he was doing what he wanted to. Sorry if I communicated it poorly.


Koa wrote:
Spoiler:
I guess I just found it far too contrived for Anderson and Shepard to make it through, with the illusive man there and waiting. I don't mind it on reflection, but it was one more pill to swallow.

A few other things: Harbinger talks as though we will't possibly understand what reapers are, and yet it's explained to us in a few minutes by the catalyst. Organic life is killed so that synthetic life doesn't kill organic life. Why does the catalyst even care? The way I see it, life is life, and organic life will always form naturally when given the right circumstances. If synthetics kill all organic life, fine. The universe is a big place. I don't see what forcing a species to "transcend" accomplishes. Better yet, why don't your reapers harvest synthetic life when it gets out of control? That makes a fuckload more sense to me. Not only is synthetic life more translatable to a reaper form, but there may be a instance when organics don't actually make a bloodthirsty synthetic life (i.e. geth).

Why will't I shoot this kid's neck? Okay, I doubt my rooty-tooty point'n'shooty would harm his ethereal form, but seriously. The very existence of everything I've done in these games, uniting the galaxy and saving lives, is all at the mercy of this insane entity.

This too. The bit at the end makes no sense with everything they've communicated to you before.

Also, various nitpicks from the rest of the game:
Spoiler:
* Tali's face reveal was done really lazily. It's just a stupid photoshop of a stock image. No in game textures or anything. They shouldn't have done any reveal.
* Conversations had a lot less options this time around; it was just renegade or paragon. No middle options, and a lot less investigates. Plus, many conversations were done outside of the dialog interface. That caused some weird instances where people would go from angry "KILL BAD GUYS!! GRR!" to "Not now Shepard" one after the other- making it obvious the audio was recorded separately.
* I can't remember how many times someone I was working with said "Shepard, you gotta just trust me on this one". Seriously, after the 2nd or 3rd time, I should have been able to say "Look asshole, I'm going to find out whatever the dumbass thing you did was by the end of this, so you might as well tell me now so I can plan for it". Everyone expects Shepard to trust them, but nobody besides Anderson and Hackett are willing to trust Shepard.
* The rachni queen was reduced to just 100 war asset points, and that's it. It's one of the most significant decisions of the very first game, and it might as well amount to nothing. Plus, apparently you still need to fight reaper-rachni even if you destroyed the queen in the first game, which makes no sense to me.
* I didn't like the way Kelly Chambers' death was handled. Not that she died, but that after Shepard was so happy to see her that he gave her a big hug, and stopped to talk to her every time he traveled to that docking bay, then she dies, and Shepard doesn't care to ask anyone about where she is or what happened to her- you only overhear other people saying she died. It removed any emotional impact from the event.
* If you already have a LI. you can't tell the 30 people propositioning Shepard that you're already interested in your LI, instead having to turn them down in less natural ways.
* Almost every cut scene assumed that I was equipped with an avenger for weapon (as it did to Tali and Liari as well, even though you can't give them assault rifles at all). Would it have been so hard for the game to look up your last used weapon?
* Why was EDI made into a squadmate and then become Joker's pet sexbot? That side-story doesn't really fit with anything else at all.
* Cerberus starts off as a full on villain right off the bat, and just seems to be evil because they're the bad guys, instead of because they have much of a benefit to it. There doesn't appear to be any change in their actions over time, even as TIM (supposedly) slowly succumbs to indoctrination.
* A lot of the more enjoyable weapons to use weren't available until very near the end of the game. I like using the SMGs, but I didn't get one actually worth using until halfway through the game.
* Already mentioned, but Harbinger basically wasn't present in game, after being setup to be Sovereign 2.0

Lots of other stuff, but I don't want to make a mega post filled with 5,000 nitpicks, even though I know I'm going to remember one that annoyed me worse than all the rest later on.

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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby Koa » Mon Mar 12, 2012 3:08 am UTC

On the bright side, Tuchanka was really good. Like, best moment in gaming history good.
Spoiler:
The damsel in distress, Eve. The sabotage plot. The thresher maw. The salarian that sacrifices everything to rectify the genophage for the greater good. Then there's so many variations and important decisions...

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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby Vaniver » Mon Mar 12, 2012 3:49 am UTC

Ghostbear wrote:* Almost every cut scene assumed that I was equipped with a avenger for family (as it did to Tali and Liari as well, even though you will't give them assault rifles at all). Would it have been so hard for the game to look up your last used family?
This was made all the more weird because it worked correctly for me about half the time (giving Shepard a sniper rifle). Why half and not all?

In related news:
Spoiler:
Shepard, master marksman and infiltrator, is chasing Kai Leng, the assassin. Kai Leng increases distance and starts flying away on a car. Instead of calmly lining up a sniper shot and separating his head from his body, as Shepard has done literally hundreds of times with other moving targets, Shepard decides to shoot with a pistol, missing every time. It's almost like it isn't a long-range weapon!

Also, in the battle where you can finally kill Leng, I'm pretty sure I finished him off with a headshot, and he was decapitated for the half second before the cut-scene began. After taking down Leng, Shepard walks nonchalantly back to the computer (why? What's there?) and the other two squadmates start pacing the window. No one decides to, say, check on the body? And so a miraculously intact Leng walks up to Shepard, making noise the way there, and then tries to stab Shepard.

The renegade interrupt looks rather cool, but the setup leading up to it is so mind-numbingly dumb that I'm left scratching my head.


Ghostbear wrote:
Spoiler:
* Why was EDI made into a squadmate and then become Joker's pet sexbot? That side-story doesn't really fit with anything else at all.
Spoiler:
EDI raises some interesting philosophical issues- where does morality come from, especially for AI? Should (can?) AI and humans develop loving relationships?

But the answers they provide really don't seem that meaningful. I only saw the paragon / go for it answers, but it basically boiled down to "EDI rewrites herself to like duty, altruism, and love" and "Joker gets over the weirdness of dating a sexbot that's also a ship."


So, I was looking through the art book and soundtrack today. Remember when they announced that Jack Wall wasn't coming back, and that Clint Mansell was scoring the music? Take a look at the soundtrack, and count the number of times you see Mansell. (Leaving Earth is one of my favorite songs off the soundtrack, and it's the one that plays during the cutscene at the end of the Earth mission, but still. I was expecting more than two.)

Spoiler:
They also were planning on having the Illusive Man turn into a Reaper monster, just like Saren. So glad they didn't.


Koa wrote:On the bright side, Tuchanka was really good. Like, best moment in gaming history good.
I don't know about that. Assuming you're talking about the primary choice you make on Tuchanka:
Spoiler:
I mean, I was definitely affected by the choice of what to do with Mordin more than I have been by any other choice a game has asked me to make.

It's a fascinating choice because, for me at least, it was the best example of doing something terrible in the short term to do something good in the long term. Mordin's a great character- and his arc from naive brilliant youngster (probably modeled after Feynman at the Manhattan project- he comments at one point that it was great to be there, working among so many brilliant minds) to troubled middle ager (Feynman commented at one point that everyone on the Project was committed to defeating the Nazis, knew the Nazis were working on their own atomic bomb, and so they had a clear moral position. But when the Nazis surrendered and the war in Europe was over, the Project kept going and no one stopped to realize they had lost their stated justification) to repentant old timer (when the bombs were actually used on Japan many of the scientists had second thoughts) is definitely worth thinking about.

But his reason for curing the genophage seems weak. It's not "I think the Krogan are responsible enough to participate on the galactic stage" but "I don't trust long-range forecasting." Yes, the future is uncertain, but that doesn't mean it's unknowable, and war is all about making tough decisions based on limited information. Mordin in his loyalty mission in ME2 strikes me as compassionate towards everyone- yeah, it sucks that the Krogan have to be essentially castrated, but we ran the numbers and that's the best solution for all involved. Mordin in ME3 strikes me as willing to sacrifice the galaxy to assuage his conscience.

And so I shot him, and hated myself for doing it, and hated him for making me do it. I'm not going to let someone sacrifice the galaxy just because they're a great friend, but neither do bad political decisions make them any less valuable a person.

But it would have been nice if, in the game, they let you state your motivation for shooting him. Garrus was my LI (big surprise), and if you sabotage and Wrex is alive, Wrex finds out, attacks you, then dies. Garrus is clever enough to piece together from the Salarian assistance and Wrex's assassination attempt that you sabotaged the cure. He discusses it entirely in the context of the Salarian assistance- but that's not my motivation at all. I can get 150 war assets elsewhere, thanks, and Clan Urdnot and Wrex were worth over double that. And so he assumes that I sold out Wrex because I want to save Earth now, and I can't correct him and tell him it's because I want to save the galaxy when the Krogan decide they need more living space.

The reason I'm not sure if it's 'best moment in gaming history' good? Looking at what the choice was in game terms. It just makes me shake my head. Whether or not you cure the Krogan makes no long-term difference, because there are no relays. You get more war assets from curing the genophage if Wrex survived Virmire, and more from sabotaging if Wrex didn't survive Virmire (because Wrex will notice the sabotage but Wreav is too stupid to). Mordin dies whether you kill him or let him sacrifice himself. The philosophical issues just don't matter, because there's no long term, and the difference in war assets is small enough that it isn't a meaningful choice on that end.
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby Lucrece » Mon Mar 12, 2012 4:02 am UTC

Well, that's if you don't place any faith on Eve and an upcoming revolution by females to rein in the males. In the Normandy she launches into a lengthy dialogue about the need for females to take back their place, and later on she successfully asserts herself a leader by stopping the clans of bickering and having Shepard back her up.

Eve can show perspective, and while the males may show more resistance, they are bound by need to coexist with females. Since the males seem to hold no physical advantage over females so as to whimsically suppress them at will (i.e. rape them and keep them as sexual slaves), it's not entirely impossible for females to make a difference. Wrex starts showing respect for Mordin to begin with, as he did for Shepard.
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby Okita » Mon Mar 12, 2012 4:29 am UTC

Lucrece wrote:Well, that's if you don't place any faith on Eve and a upcoming revolution by females to rein in the males. In the Normandy she launches into a lengthy dialogue about the need for females to take back their place, and later on she successfully asserts herself a leader by stopping the clans of bickering and having Shepard back her up.

Eve will show perspective, and while the males may show more resistance, they are bound by need to coexist with females. Since the males seem to hold no physical advantage over females so as to whimsically suppress them at will (i.e. rape them and keep them as sexual slaves), it's not entirely impossible for females to make a difference. Wrex starts showing respect for Mordin to begin with, as he did for Shepard.


Not a big fan of spoilering things are you Lucrece...

Spoiler:
Eve and Wrex do talk about naming their first kid Mordin. Although now that I think about it... even though I let Mordin sacrificed himself to save the Krogan because I believed in Wrex and Eve.... Wrex is stuck on Earth (or somewhere other than Tuchanka) while Eve is stuck on the home planet due to the mass relay destruction. Krogan growth is completely checked by no mass relays not to mention that they don't travel well on ships (due to confined spaces). And since the genophage is cured, the krogan are doomed to overpopulate and possibly destroy their planet again...?

Man, the more I think about it, the more I am disappointed about how the ending screws up everything. It's not just that the ending invalidated my choices but that in some ways, it makes them a lot worse...
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby omgryebread » Mon Mar 12, 2012 4:45 am UTC

Yeah, I hadn't read the spoilers, and I was convinced it couldn't be as bad as you guys and everyone else was implying. It was, though! I've played plenty of games that got the big picture right and horribly mangled the small stuff, this is the first I can think of that reversed it, except maybe Xenogears. Even that was an obvious time/budget issue, whereas ME3's bad part is a horrible design decision.

I will say that any scene with TIM was carried by Martin Sheen's immense skill.

Anyway, my problems with the ending that haven't been covered.
Spoiler:
The entire "theme" of the series was hope. It was about this one hero who stood up against all odds and took on that which was literally bigger than comprehension. Shepard's strength was in leadership, getting people to love her and follow her (using her since that's the Shepard I played.) She could win over the Rachni, a hated enemy of the entire galaxy. She could convince Urdnot Wrex to destroy what would save his people. She could rally the fleet of humanity and save the Citadel and even the Council that continuously worked against her and humanity. She could gather 11 of the most eccentric and capable people in the galaxy and take them on a suicide mission, bringing each and every one back alive. She worked with a geth, at this point the galaxy's worst enemy. Then she proceeded to rally all the civilizations of the galaxy to her side to take back Earth. She got Krogans to invade the home world of a sworn enemy alongside them to take it back. She saw a close friend die to give the geth individuality, and then saw the geth and Quarians unite on Rannoch. Even the most tragic scenes in ME3 were about hope. Moridin's crowning moment of awesome was about him sacrificing himself for the Krogan and their future. I cried on that one (it's easy to make me cry, though). Geth and Quarians? Hope for the future!

And then the end. All the hope for the future? Nah, lol, civilization destroyed. Why did the super ray beam even need to destroy the geth? You'd think the Catalyst, able to control the Reapers, could destroy you know, just the Reapers? Didn't even make sense the mass relays were destroyed. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate a "you have choices, all of them bad" as much as the next guy, but this was hardly a choice. I would have done most exactly the same, it just desperately needed real choices. Hell, even keep the kid. Let the choices be (assuming you got enough points for the best ending: Shepard becomes part of the Reapers, and they leave, becoming their opposite, a silent vigil against any threat like the one they posed. Shepard lives, controlling the Reapers, with a hint of "for now." Shepard dies to achieve synthesis, with peace being attained, but at the cost of what made organic and synthetic unique. Shepard dies to destroy the Reapers, saving the mass relays. Shepard destroys the Reapers and mass relays, lives.

Have a silent epilogue showing the remnants of the galaxy. Things like Tali and a geth prime installing the window she wanted. Grunt appears to be fighting some Turians, until the camera pulls back and shows them fighting a Thresher Maw together. Wrex in the Citadel, talking over a galaxy map with the Council. Javik chilling in a Prothean building, teaching some Hanar about how awesome Protheans were. Even sad things! Zaeed on Omega, in a firefight pinned down by Blue Suns (if the guy got away in ME2, have him be there), until he charges out, drops in their position, and blows himself and all the criminals up. Whatever the last one is, have the camera pan out, and show Liara watching it on a console on her ship.

Then in a few months, they could have sold a DLC in which if you do some new side missions, the end of the game can change, and you get a chance to have a bitching final battle against the Catalyst. Winning lets you have a good ending without Shepard dying. End of the epilogue is Shepard, with love interest if there is one, sitting in the Normandy's lounge, overlooking Earth. Also throw him/her in the LI's epilogue scene.

Oooh, also a secret bad ending. If you do those side missions in the DLC, but don't get the good ending because of low asset points, show the Reapers harvesting everything. Have the before-credits epilogue show empty worlds. Then have an after credits epilogue showing the Yahg fleet fighting the Reapers. A Yahg walks onto the platform. He then makes the choice based on the ME2 Collector Base choice. If you both did the missions, and have a high EMS, give some way to still get the bad ending. This time, the the Yahg smiles and you see a VI of Shepard behind him. The Yahg levels his heavy weapon and blows up the Catalyst, ending the Reaper threat forever.



Soooo. I don't know if it would work on higher difficulties, but I had a ton of fun with my setup. Widow/Mattock/Hurricane. The theory was to snipe everything, using the Mattock if enemies were too close, and the Hurricane if I got flanked and was in very close range. The terrain was very open though, and cover got busted a lot. Banshees, Brutes, Husks, Guardians, Hunters, and just the ease of getting flanked kind of ruined that though, and I found the best way to play infiltrator was to just run around and shoot things. So much fun to run and gun around, rolling as needed, cloaking to find cover if shields are down. Gun with the Mattock, scoping with it if need be. If you get the chance, cool, take out the Widow and put in some headshots. If there's an enemy position to bust, whip out the Hurricane, cloak up, storm the position, pop out behind them. On Normal, you can take down pretty much any normal enemy (i.e. not something like a Brute or a Prime) as you decloak. Finish them off with the SMG or heavy melee, or roll away and regen shields, popping right back as soon as you can.

Against Cerberus, stay back and in cover longer than against others. Use the Widow to kill advancing Guardians and take out any Nemesis. Hack turrets like crazy. Only go aggressive when you start securing cover and you need to take out positions that Centurions and Engineers are holding. When Atlases appear, smile widely, because they're fun. Run in and out of cover, trying to get it's attention, and dropping squadmate powers. Use their powers and your Mattock to strip shields. Then load the sniper rifle, cloak up, and put all three through the canopy. Boom. If Phantoms are involved, whimper a bit, and run around in a panic shooting the SMG wildly.

Geth, use the Widow to take out a few rocket troopers, switch to the Mattock and take out some of the advancing hunters. If there's a prime, snipe it first. Then start advancing, keeping geth under cover with the Mattock. Start busting positions with cloak and the Hurricane. If a Prime appears, just drop into cover and snipe it.

Reapers are the most fun. Ravagers take priority. Cloak and Snipe from cover as far away as possible. Snipe some Marauders or Cannibals if you'd like. Then just advance/cloak like crazy. Banshees come right after Ravagers in priority. Drop squad powers, and use the Mattock to strip barriers. You'll probably need to run back some. Headshot with sniper to take down once barrier is gone. If husks are involved in the fight, just melee or SMG as needed. Brutes are where the fun is. Your team will probably die, but don't mind that. If Brutes are with other things, cloak up, run to the other end of the battlefield, snipe them a few times, then wait a bit and repeat. If it's just a brute and maybe on or two other things, or several brutes (super fun), then you just roll around, cloak when you need to escape. Be kind of close and just shoot them with the sniper rifle, unscoped like a boss.
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby Lucrece » Mon Mar 12, 2012 4:49 am UTC

Queen Thresher Maw will pretty much keep the Korgan population in check.

Also, there was a smarmy Penny arcade worker's comment retweeted by a ME3 team member:

"There is a movement to change the ending of Mass Effect 3. I love it. I support it."
"I want this for everything. I'm starting a letter writing campaign to have Gatbsy end with a steamy sex scene."
"Max Payne should end with a surprise party and his wife and kid are there. Someone needs to write the petition."


http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic ... /9801505/1

BSN mods predictably locked the thread when the rabble started trashtalking staff. Still, not greatly encouraging about possible alternate endings when someone's tweet from the team is to mock more nuanced fan reaction.
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby Vaniver » Mon Mar 12, 2012 5:18 am UTC

Lucrece wrote:Well, that's if you don't place any faith on Eve and a upcoming revolution by females to rein in the males. In the Normandy she launches into a lengthy dialogue about the need for females to take back their place, and later on she successfully asserts herself a leader by stopping the clans of bickering and having Shepard back her up.

Eve will show perspective, and while the males may show more resistance, they are bound by need to coexist with females. Since the males seem to hold no physical advantage over females so as to whimsically suppress them at will (i.e. rape them and keep them as sexual slaves), it's not entirely impossible for females to make a difference. Wrex starts showing respect for Mordin to begin with, as he did for Shepard.
Spoiler:
The Krogan Rebellions predate the Genophage; the Krogan were normal when they invaded the rest of the galaxy and when they dropped asteroids onto Turian planets. The good times Eve talks about were only good times for the Krogan. A return to normalcy is not a good thing.

Likewise, I have little faith that the good example of Wrex and Eve will magically alter the Krogan race as a whole. Perhaps Wrex could keep them in check, but is his wisdom hereditary? How many generations until an expansionist takes the throne? (Hint: 0. Remember the conversation in the transport?)
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby Lucrece » Mon Mar 12, 2012 5:28 am UTC

Vaniver wrote:
Lucrece wrote:Well, that's if you don't place any faith on Eve and a upcoming revolution by females to rein in the males. In the Normandy she launches into a lengthy dialogue about the need for females to take back their place, and later on she successfully asserts herself a leader by stopping the clans of bickering and having Shepard back her up.

Eve will show perspective, and while the males may show more resistance, they are bound by need to coexist with females. Since the males seem to hold no physical advantage over females so as to whimsically suppress them at will (i.e. rape them and keep them as sexual slaves), it's not entirely impossible for females to make a difference. Wrex starts showing respect for Mordin to begin with, as he did for Shepard.
Spoiler:
The Krogan Rebellions predate the Genophage; the Krogan were normal when they invaded the rest of the galaxy and when they dropped asteroids onto Turian planets. The good times Eve talks about were only good times for the Krogan. A return to normalcy is not a good thing.

Likewise, I have little faith that the good example of Wrex and Eve will magically alter the Krogan race as a whole. Perhaps Wrex could keep them in check, but is his wisdom hereditary? How many generations until a expansionist takes the throne? (Hint: 0. Remember the conversation in the transport?)



Are you suggesting it's impossible for a particular species to change based on experience? Because Eve strictly disproves that. Humans, in all their advancement, disprove that. Turians, in their previously imperialistic regime, have shown an evolution toward more peaceful coexistence. Salarians have shown to have difference of opions on a genophage where there was negative consensus at the beginning of the trilogy.

Cultures have the capability to change, even Krogan. The Krogan were selfish and survival minded, and yet in ME1/2 you saw both Krogan willing to set aside their personal ambitions to tag along in your puny human goals, dealing with a Salarian crew mate and a large part of the crew combatant females (whereas females in Krogan society were removed from combat). In ME3, the narrative continues.

You see examples of good-hearted, progressive Krogan leadership, and you see the regressive morons. It's not unlike rogue Turian supremacists or Asari condescension and their pirates/commandoes/intransigent justicars.
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby omgryebread » Mon Mar 12, 2012 5:51 am UTC

So, in the shower, I thought of a fun happy denialist interpretation of the ending. Everything's not so bad! I'm trying to convince myself this is a good interpretation.

Spoiler:
Buzz Aldrin (!) at the end tells the little girl she'll get to the stars "very soon." He also mentions that each of those stars have worlds, and lives to see. This seems to indicate space travel is possible, as is reaching other systems. Reapers had extremely fast FTL, it seems they could move between clusters in a matter of months or just a few years without needing mass relays. Humans (either via Shepard controlling them, or them all keeling over in London) now possess large amounts of Reaper tech, as well as considerable expertise, including other species still stranded on the planet. Presumably a lot of the Crucible scientists were with Hackett and would be close to Earth as a result. Using all that now non-indocrinating Reaper tech, the humans reverse engineer their super fast FTL and the mass relay system. They then spread around the galaxy, building mass relays as they go. Not even that far fetched, as the Protheans on Ilos already built a mass relay themselves.
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby Ghostbear » Mon Mar 12, 2012 6:14 am UTC

Vaniver wrote:In related news

Yeah, "The player is suddenly an idiot for the duration of this cut scene" never works well, and it's a really horrible crutch for developers to lean on. Also:
Spoiler:
The more I think about it, everything that involved Kei Leng just felt like it was handled horribly. Visually he just had a style that doesn't fit with the rest of the universe (what's the with the batman glasses?), he's the only person that uses a sword in the whole setting, etc. If they wanted a story with a future ninja in it, they should have written the setting to make such logical or feasible from the start. I guess they wanted to make him the rival team's "Shepard", but he was just done so poorly I don't think anything about him worked for the story.

Vaniver wrote:
Spoiler:
EDI raises some interesting philosophical issues- where does morality come from, especially for AI? could (will?) AI and humans develop loving relationships?

But the answers they provide really don't seem that meaningful. I only saw the paragon / go for it answers, but it basically boiled down to "EDI rewrites herself to like duty, altruism, and love" and "Joker gets over the weirdness of dating a sexbot that's also a ship."


I think with her, it was just "Shit! we need an engineer-analog squadmate for people that didn't have lots of other people survive!". Nothing interesting was done with her character; instead, she just magically becomes a sexbot.

With respect to people's various opinions on Tuchanka:
Spoiler:
While I agree with the reasoning that a lot of you guys are using, from the perspective of when Vaniver made that decision, you don't know any of how things are going to end up. I do think that Mordin was doing it for more than just remorse- I think he decided that the calculations that were done were misleading, and that in the absence of better data, it was best to leave the krogan in charge of their own destiny.

In the end, the consequences of your decision (even ignoring what the actual ending does to it), are so identical as to make any interesting moral discussion of the that phase of the game moot: the game handles it the same way, and has no desire to go into the complicated options with it.
Also, am I the only one that thinks the developer's hugely overdid/overestimated the personal investment players would have for Earth itself? The kid, part of what Vaniver pointed out with Tuchanka, all the marketing focus on the fight for Earth, the
Spoiler:
entire ending taking place on Earth
It just feels like they never noticed that most players actually gave a shit about the aliens that we encountered. In all 3 games, my least favorite squadmates were the humans. At every opportunity the game gave me, I took Tali and Garrus with me; by the third game, they felt like my old buddies, who always stuck with me. Kaiden and Ashley can go fuck themselves (seriously, as I said earlier, I'd have killed both if the first game had let me), Jacob was boring, Miranda was a bitch... James was the most interesting one of them, and he's really just a generic soldier that likes to occasionally use spanish words. The characters that people cared about were almost all universally alien, the worlds that people found interesting were almost all alien, the stories that we invested ourselves in (quarians vs. geth, genophage, rachni queen..) were all alien. The shift to "Earth Earth Earth!" seems like a decision made by the marketing department instead of story writers. I can see Earth (or Earth-likes) in almost any video game, why would somebody want to focus on it when they're playing a game that lets them see somewhere else?

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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby omgryebread » Mon Mar 12, 2012 6:42 am UTC

Ghostbear wrote:Also, am I the only one that thinks the developer's hugely overdid/overestimated the personal investment players would have for Earth itself? The kid, part of what Vaniver pointed out with Tuchanka, all the marketing focus on the fight for Earth, the
Spoiler:
entire ending taking place on Earth
It just feels like they never noticed that most players actually gave a shit about the aliens that we encountered. In all 3 games, my least favorite squadmates were the humans. At every opportunity the game gave me, I took Tali and Garrus with me; by the third game, they felt like my old buddies, who always stuck with me. Kaiden and Ashley will go fuck themselves (seriously, as I sprayed earlier, I'd have killed both if the first game had let me), Jacob was boring, Miranda was a bitch... James was the most interesting one of them, and he's really just a generic soldier that likes to occasionally use spanish loaves. The characters that people cared about were almost all universally alien, the worlds that people found interesting were almost all alien, the stories that we invested ourselves in (quarians vs. geth, genophage, rachni queen..) were all alien. The shift to "Earth Earth Earth!" seems like a decision made by the marketing department instead of story writers. I will see Earth (or Earth-likes) in almost any video game, why would somebody want to focus on it when they're playing a game that lets them see somewhere else?
Yeah, you're actually really right. Even Shepard's focus on Earth doesn't make a ton of sense. My Shep was born on a spaceship, grew up on spaceships. Her years on earth were all in Rio, and all grueling training. They were probably very formative, so there's some attachment to Earth, but at this point, the Normandy was probably more her home than anything. She's also seen countless people die whom she formed much more attachments to than some kid on Earth who was an idiot anyway. She spends the entire game having nightmares about him, but only a few whispers about a very good friend she left behind on Virmire? Nothing at all for her trusted navigator and XO, Pressly, who died under her command?
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby Dauric » Mon Mar 12, 2012 7:13 am UTC

omgryebread wrote:
Ghostbear wrote:Also, am I the only one that thinks the developer's hugely overdid/overestimated the personal investment players would have for Earth itself? The kid, part of what Vaniver pointed out with Tuchanka, all the marketing focus on the fight for Earth, the
Spoiler:
entire ending taking place on Earth
It just feels like they never noticed that most players actually gave a shit about the aliens that we encountered. In all 3 games, my least favorite squadmates were the humans. At every opportunity the game gave me, I took Tali and Garrus with me; by the third game, they felt like my old buddies, who always stuck with me. Kaiden and Ashley will go fuck themselves (seriously, as I sprayed earlier, I'd have killed both if the first game had let me), Jacob was boring, Miranda was a bitch... James was the most interesting one of them, and he's really just a generic soldier that likes to occasionally use spanish loaves. The characters that people cared about were almost all universally alien, the worlds that people found interesting were almost all alien, the stories that we invested ourselves in (quarians vs. geth, genophage, rachni queen..) were all alien. The shift to "Earth Earth Earth!" seems like a decision made by the marketing department instead of story writers. I will see Earth (or Earth-likes) in almost any video game, why would somebody want to focus on it when they're playing a game that lets them see somewhere else?
Yeah, you're actually really right. Even Shepard's focus on Earth doesn't make a ton of sense. My Shep was born on a spaceship, grew up on spaceships. Her years on earth were all in Rio, and all grueling training. They were probably very formative, so there's some attachment to Earth, but at this point, the Normandy was probably more her home than anything. She's also seen countless people die whom she formed much more attachments to than some kid on Earth who was a idiot anyway. She spends the entire game having nightmares about him, but only a few whispers about a very good friend she left behind on Virmire? Nothing at all for her trusted navigator and XO, Pressly, who died under her command?


You have both introduced the hammer to the nail-head.

When I saw the marketing for ME3 I was genuinely afraid that they'd done away with the space-travel and that they'd completely changed the focus of the series from the entire galaxy to just earth. They at least didn't (quite) fuck that up, though I think they did their damnedest to try. I always took the aliens on missions or in to town (especially in ME1 taking Wrex and Garrus together on the citadel to listen to them bicker at eachother), and I loved the take on networked intelligence presented by Legion.
Spoiler:
The thing about the child on earth is that the only person that sees him is Shepard. The kid is playing by himself in the opening cinematic, his declaration to Shepard in the air duct (that there's no way the kid should have been able to get to) is oddly prophetic then he's long gone before Anderson comes back, and he gets in to the transport by himself then the transport explodes. and then it turns out to be the Citadel Child. It's kind of like someone saw "Sixth Sense" and has been wanting to do their own variation on that.
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby Ghostbear » Mon Mar 12, 2012 7:35 am UTC

omgryebread wrote:She's also seen countless people die whom she formed much more attachments to than some kid on Earth who was a idiot anyway. She spends the entire game having nightmares about him, but only a few whispers about a very good friend she left behind on Virmire? Nothing at all for her trusted navigator and XO, Pressly, who died under her command?

Yeah, this is why the kid was so bothersome. Shepard has seen many people that s/he cared about die. People that Shepard actually knew. Even Jenkins or Nihlus would be more important to Shepard. The human response to the death of a character is something that games in general handle poorly. It only really work when the game doesn't focus on it, such that you can imagine that your character is responding in a human way off screen, and just has to steel themselves away from it for the moments that we play- similar to how you don't have to worry about your character sleeping, eating, using the bathroom, etc. By shoving the kid into the game, they drew immediate attention to all of the people that died who were promptly ignored. Off the top of my head, people that I care approximately infinitely more about than that little kid:
Spoiler:
Thane, Legion, Kal'Reegar, Jenkins, Nihlus, Kaiden/Ashley (even though I hated them), Presley, Mordin, Kelly Chambers. Even minor characters like Rila or the Asari commander on Thessia were more important to my Shepard. And that doesn't even go into the list of people who might die but aren't guaranteed to do so. Hell, even Saren would elicit more guilt from my Shepard- he was actually someone trying to do what they thought was best, but just got corrupted by indoctrination. Saren was still able to be convinced of how he was wrong by the very end, and did what he could to help defeat the reapers; he even thanked Shepard at the very end if you did manage to talk him into it.

Also, didn't they get the memo that dream sequences where the player can't do or decide anything, and inexplicably moves slower, are just plain annoying instead of fun?

Lucrece wrote:Still, not greatly encouraging about possible alternate endings when someone's tweet from the team is to mock more nuanced fan reaction.

I think that the Bioware staff live within their own private bubbles, protected from all negative feedback, after this ending. A lot of the less superficial complaints about DA2 were repeated in ME3. They have a lot of really shitheaded posters on their own forums, and it seems to me that instead of trying to mod it properly or separate the wheat from the chaff, they just assume that all complaints fall under the "made by a shithead" category. They need to learn (or re-learn) how to boil criticism down into something useful, giving enough respect to their customers to assume that those that aren't 100% happy with the product aren't doing so because they failed to recognize Bioware's genius.

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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby Lucrece » Mon Mar 12, 2012 8:04 am UTC

Pffft! Leave Kaidan alone! I waited three goddamned installments till my Shepard could be with him, and it was fucking glorious. And then the endings came. And then, I thought "Alright, where the fuck is Ashton Kutcher?""THERE IS NO JUSTICE IN THE WORLD. ALL THIS WAITING. NOOOOOOO!"
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby Faithful » Mon Mar 12, 2012 12:54 pm UTC

So I finally got around to finishing this game. TLDR - Good but not Great. The relationship set ups were awesome. Characters were awesome. Ending totally disappointed me.

Spoiler:
In my main game, I renewed my relationship with Ashley and the interactions were cool. The cafe talk, the talk before the final fight were all very well written and the expression worked. Plus, she didn't have pink and white armor on all the time. In my second playthrough, I didn't want the same relationship I had, so I went with Tali. I got to see her face (I don't care what you say about how it was delivered, I saw her damn face!)

The ending was kinda crappy for me though. I didn't like the whole AI thing in the Citadel. I really didn't like the fact that my Shepard may have survived and all the Mass Relays are gone. So now what? Oh wait, you want to continue the story? Sure how about we continue it before you go into TIM's base. C'mon. I'd have rather been able to add DLC content to after you save the universe. You have so many more possibilities. Each character can have a DLC pack. Each minor character can have a DLC. I felt that Bioware just took the easy way out. "End space travel so we can not have a ME4"

Gameplay. Adept. LOVED IT. Once again I was mashing buttons like ME1. Abilities were all great and well done. Nothing was too powerful. I felt there was an even amount of barrier/armored/shielded enemies that I never felt gimped in a mission. Engineers are pretty damn cool too (Take that out of context, the statement still stands :) )

Overall - 8/10. Story ending sucked. Characters were great. Gameplay - pretty damn cool. Multiplayer - Decent, if not repetitive. Will play again...after I complete a full game of ME2 to import my customized characters.

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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby Dauric » Mon Mar 12, 2012 1:06 pm UTC

Ghostbear wrote:
omgryebread wrote:She's also seen countless people die whom she formed much more attachments to than some kid on Earth who was a idiot anyway. She spends the entire game having nightmares about him, but only a few whispers about a very good friend she left behind on Virmire? Nothing at all for her trusted navigator and XO, Pressly, who died under her command?

Yeah, this is why the kid was so bothersome. Shepard hath seen many people that s/he cared about die. People that Shepard actually knew. Even Jenkins or Nihlus would be more important to Shepard. The human response to the death of a character is something that games in general handle poorly. It only really work when the game doesn't focus on it, such that you will imagine that your character is responding in a human way off screen, and just hath to steel themselves away from it for the moments that we play- similar to how you don't have to worry about your character sleeping, eating, using the bathroom, etc. By shoving the kid into the game, they drew immediate attention to all of the people that died who were promptly ignored. Off the top of my neck, people that I care approximately infinitely more about than that little kid:

Also, didn't they get the memo that dream sequences where the player won't do or decide anything, and inexplicably moves slower, are just plain adorable instead of fun?


The thing is I think their writers, in an attempt to be.. 'artsier' were actually filling the story with more plot-holes than just having flashbacks about someone Shepard had never met.
Spoiler:
I think that what the writers were aiming for was that somehow the Citadel Child was beaming messages in to Shepard's brain. Again, no-one else sees the kid, the Alliance soldier is standing right next to him at the shuttle but doesn't grab him and lift him in to the shuttle, the kid has to literally climb in on his own. Nobody interacts with the kid except Shepard who only sees and hears him.

Then there's the "Reaper-Theme" (the blast of digital tuba with extra bass) in Shepard's dreams with no visuals of a Reaper.

How is Citadel Child beaming messages in to Shepard's brain? Hey, look it's another incomprehensible plot-hole in the name of being artsy.

So, it's not even just that they're making an inappropriate emotional attachment for Shepard, but that they're just being downright incomprehensibly weird, which would fit in with the garbage they did at the very end which is a litany of poorly executed gritty-artsy film tropes.
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby maybeagnostic » Mon Mar 12, 2012 1:56 pm UTC

Okay, so I still haven't finished the game and at this point trying to read this thread without spoiling the ending (that everyone seems to think is horrible) is getting really difficult but I have a really important question about the quarian quest chain.
Spoiler:
I am trying to get the quarian and geth to stop fighting so everything can be happiness and sunshine and rainbows and stuff. So I saved the peace-supporting admiral and I was going to destroy the geth fighter base but, unfortunately, some genius named the geth fighter base 'geth depot' and the reaper indoctrination depot 'geth base' on the planet map (or, more likely, I accidentally clicked on the wrong one). Anyway, I didn't realize I was on the wrong mission until after I killed the reaper and accidentally destroyed the quarians (oops) but at that point I had already overwritten all my recent saves that aren't already on that mission. It seems there is no way to leave a mission once you've started it so 'restart mission' is no help but my most recent save from before that is 5 hours earlier (that is 25% of my total time spent playing the game!). Before I start replaying all that content I wanted to ask if destroying the fighter base first would allow me to save both the quarians and the geth or I would be wasting my time.


The gameplay part of the game is getting pretty boring at this point. I figured out how to play vanguard a few hours into the game- my mistake had been thinking those guns I was lugging around were actually good for something when my Shepard is actually a future space jedi (jedi are already from space but whatever) and just kills people with his mind. I think this is what Jack was supposed to be like in the last game. Just doing a constant charge/nova combo destroys everything that Shepard can actually reach. I only ever use bullets if an enemy is far enough that I don't feel like walking all the way back after a charge or enemies are somewhere Shepard shouldn't go (and thus can't charge to). Even then shockwave is usually more powerful than a fully upgraded paladin pistol. The one thing that gets me killed often are Cerberus engineers' turrets. Those things are ridiculously powerful and one of them seems to deal more damage than a geth prime. Overall fights are ridiculously easy even though I am playing on hardcore. Maybe I should just switch up to insanity but I don't really care that much about my fights being challenging.

One thing that annoys me is the discrepancy between in-game fights and cut scenes. Sure, I can headbutt three reaper brutes to death simultaneously but some guy standing right in front of me
Spoiler:
stabbing Thane with a katana
is so scary Shepard just stands around, aiming his gun and... looks on? Maybe that was just a particularly annoyingly set up cut scene but I am also a little miffed that all these biotics show off their powers in cut scenes and I don't get to :P Sure, I was a vanguard in the previous game and the same thing happened then but in ME2 I spent a lot of time shooting things and very little time thinking them to death. I just feel a lot more bioticy in this game and I am sad the other characters don't recognize that fact (yes, my feelings are objective facts).

P.S. 'I think therefore I am'. Hah. What's with the filter?
P.P.S. Okay, these filters are making it hard to write a coherent post.
P.P.P.S. Yes, that kid annoys me to no end. If Shepard cared so much why not just drag it out of the vent. The artsy slo-mo dreams are so over the top and ridiculous that I can't take them seriously at all.
T: ... through an emergency induction port.
S: That's a straw, Tali.
T: Emerrrgency induction port.

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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby Dauric » Mon Mar 12, 2012 2:24 pm UTC

maybeagnostic wrote:Okay, so I still haven't finished the game and at this point trying to read this thread without spoiling the ending (that everyone seems to think is horrible) is getting really difficult but I have a really important question about the quarian quest chain.
Spoiler:
HULK trying to get the quarian and geth to stop fighting so everything will be happiness and sunshine and rainbows and stuff. So I saved the peace-supporting admiral and I was going to destroy the geth fighter base but, unfortunately, some genius named the geth fighter base 'geth depot' and the reaper indoctrination depot 'geth base' on the planet map (or, more likely, I accidentally clicked on the wrong one). Anyway, I didn't realize I was on the wrong mission until after I killed the reaper and accidentally destroyed the quarians (oops) but at that point I had already overwritten all my recent saves that aren't already on that mission. It seems there is no way to leave a mission once you've started it so 'restart mission' is no help but my most recent save from before that is 5 hours earlier (that is 25% of my total time spent playing the game!). Before I start replaying all that content I wanted to ask if destroying the fighter base first would allow me to save both the quarians and the geth or I would be wasting my time.



Spoiler:
First off is that in ME2, when you're doing Legion's loyalty quest you have to destroy the virus and not rewrite the heretics. If you rewrote the heretics in your imported ME2 save or didn't do Legion's loyalty quest at all there's nothing you can do to get the allied Geth/Quarian ending.

I don't have my hint-guide handy so I couldn't go through the rest of the list, there's one thing from ME1 that would make your life easier but I forget which decision it is, but I think it's -possible- to get by without it. Saving the pacifist admiral helps (pretty much doing all the Quarian/Geth missions before hitting the reaper-base helps).
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby SlyReaper » Mon Mar 12, 2012 2:29 pm UTC

Spoiler:
I rewrote the heretics in ME2 and was able to get both the geth and quarians to play nice. But for some reason I've not been able to on my second play through.
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby Dauric » Mon Mar 12, 2012 2:32 pm UTC

SlyReaper wrote:
Spoiler:
I rewrote the heretics in ME2 and was able to get both the geth and quarians to play nice. But for some reason I've not been able to on my second play through.


Spoiler:
Wow. So much for Brady Guides. They were pretty insistent that rewriting the heretics would fubar the quest.

You also need like 4+ bars of Paragon on your character stat-screen, which as I recall when I had gotten to that point I had only a little more than 4 bars of reputation total.
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby Chen » Mon Mar 12, 2012 2:42 pm UTC

Dauric wrote:
SlyReaper wrote:
Spoiler:
I rewrote the heretics in ME2 and was able to get both the geth and quarians to play nice. But for some reason I've not been able to on my second play through.


Spoiler:
Wow. So much for Brady Guides. They were pretty insistent that rewriting the heretics would fubar the quest.

You also need like 4+ bars of Paragon on your character stat-screen, which as I recall when I had gotten to that point I had only a little more than 4 bars of reputation total.


Spoiler:
I recall reading somewhere you need 5 or more points and high paragon/renegade to get them to stop fighting. You also have to have done Legion's loyalty quest in ME2. You get points from:
2 points for destroying the heretic geth (but if you do this and succeed you get less War Assets from the Geth)
2 points for not having Tali exiled
1 point for destroying the Geth fighter squadron on Rannoch
1 point for saving the Admiral on Rannoch
1 point for breaking up the Legion/Tali fight via a paragon/renegade option in ME2

My understanding in the best outcome is getting your points from not exiling Tali, doing the 2 ME 3 sidequests and breaking up the Tali/Legion fight in ME 2. This way you get the re-programmed Geth which give more war assets AND the quarians survive to give you THEIR war assets

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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby maybeagnostic » Mon Mar 12, 2012 2:49 pm UTC

Dauric wrote:
SlyReaper wrote:
Spoiler:
I rewrote the heretics in ME2 and was able to get both the geth and quarians to play nice. But for some reason I've not been able to on my second play through.


Spoiler:
Wow. So much for Brady Guides. They were pretty insistent that rewriting the heretics would fubar the quest.

You also need like 4+ bars of Paragon on your character stat-screen, which as I recall when I had gotten to that point I had only a little more than 4 bars of reputation total.

Spoiler:
I did rewrite the heretics but Legion said that decision didn't really effect the outcome (which made it somewhat pointless).

Similarly, I made Mordin save the genophage cure research data and spare his assistant but I assume that made no difference to the story?


P.S. Ah, yes, then I have four points by that count and need one extra from doing the fighter squadron quest. Oh, well, five hours of replaying, here I come.
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby Dark567 » Mon Mar 12, 2012 3:03 pm UTC

Mordin and Genophage:
maybeagnostic wrote:
Spoiler:
Similarly, I made Mordin save the genophage cure research data and spare his assistant but I assume that made no difference to the story?
.

Spoiler:
I am fairly certain if you don't save the research data AND you didn't save Wrex in ME1, you can't cure the genophage and Mordin ends up surviving by you both letting the sabotage happen. This allows you to get both Salarian and Krogan support.
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby The Sleeping Tyrant » Mon Mar 12, 2012 3:23 pm UTC

maybeagnostic wrote:
Spoiler:
I did rewrite the heretics but Legion sprayed that decision didn't really effect the outcome (which made it somewhat pointless).

Similarly, I made Mordin save the genophage cure research data and spare his assistant but I assume that made no difference to the story?

Spoiler:
If you don't save his data, Eve definitely dies.

Whether you let Maelon live or not doesn't matter, from what I've seen. There's an investigate option about it, but Mordin just says he's probably gone to ground, and Mordin would shoot him given the chance.

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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby Xeio » Mon Mar 12, 2012 3:58 pm UTC

Dauric wrote:
Spoiler:
First off is that in ME2, when you're doing Legion's loyalty quest you have to destroy the virus and not rewrite the heretics. If you rewrote the heretics in your imported ME2 save or didn't do Legion's loyalty quest at all there's nothing you will do to get the allied Geth/Quarian ending.
Wait, what? Yes there is. Unless by ending you mean end of the game and not the immediate conflict, maybe...

Also, I need to stop reading this thread, it's way too tempting to click those spoiler buttons before I've finished the whole game.

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Re: That Mass Effect 3

Postby Vaniver » Mon Mar 12, 2012 6:47 pm UTC

Lucrece wrote:Are you suggesting it's impossible for a particular species to change based on experience? Because Eve strictly disproves that.
Eve shows that individuals don't have to conform to stereotypes, but we already knew that. The question is what will happen to statistical averages over the long run. (Indeed, if Eve survives, she's fertile and, in theory, most of her offspring will be as well. The Krogan will eventually be mostly descended from Eve, and thus hopefully be more peaceable / long-sighted than they are now, and that gives them many generations to adapt their culture before they have the population to expand.)

I'm also not sure if "experience" is the word I would use. Britain underwent a demographic shift from the ~1200s to the ~1700s, and it's unsurprising that the Industrial Revolution happened to the society with a peaceful, educated, long-sighted middle class rather than to the violent, stratified society. Changing the environment which an individual or group lives in can also have a large effect- but the experience of Krogan history is that giving them any planets that aren't hellholes leads to an explosion of violence. So should the genophage be cured, but Krogans forbidden to leave Tuchanka, where as many of them will be killed by the planet as the genophage would have prevented from being born? That doesn't seem much kinder.

Lucrece wrote:You see examples of good-hearted, progressive Krogan leadership, and you see the regressive morons. It's not unlike rogue Turian supremacists or Asari condescension and their pirates/commandoes/intransigent justicars.
Sure, but the "good-hearted" leadership is "possesses a functioning forebrain" not "has the galaxy's best interests at heart." The other difference is that, among the Krogans, the peaceful wing are the rogues, who happen to have control now in part because of Shepard's meddling. How long can they maintain that control, especially when the Krogan spread across multiple planets?

Dark567 wrote:
Spoiler:
HULK fairly certain if you don't save the research data AND you didn't save Wrex in ME1, you will't cure the genophage and Mordin ends up surviving by you both letting the sabotage happen. This allows you to get both Salarian and Krogan support.
What. I need to know if this is the case. [checks wiki] Apparently it is. And it would only take... replaying all three games.
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Re: That That Mass Effect 3

Postby Dark567 » Mon Mar 12, 2012 6:59 pm UTC

Vaniver wrote:
Dark567 wrote:
Spoiler:
HULK fairly certain if you don't save the research data AND you didn't save Wrex in ME1, you will't cure the genophage and Mordin ends up surviving by you both letting the sabotage happen. This allows you to get both Salarian and Krogan support.
What. I need to know if this is the case. [checks wiki] Apparently it is. And it would only take... replaying all three games.
Spoiler:
To save Mordin, I would go through quite a lot, it was probably the saddest death I have seen in a game in quite some time(dying sing "the salarien scientist"). I noticed above people were complaining about the lack of choices in the game having on the ending(which I have admittedly not seen yet, so I could be completely wrong), but little things like this make it seem like those choices from previous games do seem to have dramatic outcomes in this one.

It also means sacrificing Wrex who I also like. Although granted I only really started liking him in ME2, so if I had killed him in ME1 I wouldn't have known better.
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Re: That Mass Effect 3

Postby Belial » Mon Mar 12, 2012 7:13 pm UTC

Dark567 wrote:
Spoiler:
To save Mordin, I would go through quite a lot


Spoiler:
I found it to be the best possible way he could've gone out, honestly. I mean, what's the alternative? He sits around for 2 or 3 more years and then dies of old age? Salarians: not exactly long-lived.
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Re: That That Mass Effect 3

Postby Dark567 » Mon Mar 12, 2012 7:25 pm UTC

Belial wrote:
Spoiler:
I found it to be the best possible way he could've gone out, honestly. I mean, what's the alternative? He sits around for 2 or 3 more years and then dies of old age? Salarians: not exactly long-lived.
Spoiler:
True, he wouldn't have wanted it any other way, particularly if it involves sacrificing Wrex. Mordin was somewhere between 26 and 36, according to the info, so if he was on the front end of that he still had a large proportion of his life left. But obviously if it was the back-end he only had a small fraction left. Unfortunately their short lives make the fact we only have his birth date to the decade have a large impact
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Re: That Mass Effect 3

Postby Belial » Mon Mar 12, 2012 7:37 pm UTC

Spoiler:
In one of the conversations on the normandy (I flew around with their asses for a *while* before I finally got around to tuchanka) he mentions that he "doesn't have many years left", which implies to me that he's probably toward the back end of that.
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Re: That That That Mass Effect 3

Postby Ghostbear » Mon Mar 12, 2012 7:37 pm UTC

Dark567 wrote:I noticed above people were complaining about the lack of choices in the game having on the ending(which I have admittedly not seen yet, so I could be completely wrong), but little things like this make it seem like those choices from previous games do seem to have dramatic outcomes in this one.

The problem with this is that is an outcome that doesn't really make any sense with respect to the information and feedback provided to the player. There was an obvious path that leads towards certain outcomes. Having choices that fit that path poorly result in a possibly more "ideal" form of that outcome is poor design.

Also, I agree with Belial. It was the best way for things to go with him anyway.

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Re: That Mass Effect 3

Postby Belial » Mon Mar 12, 2012 7:41 pm UTC

Re: Deaths

Spoiler:
Honestly, both of the deaths I've witnessed so far (Mordin, Thane) made me sad, but also had me saying "that was really a decent out for a character I knew had an expiration date from day 1". I'm waiting for the first really unexpected death, to see how that's handled.
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Re: That Mass Effect 3

Postby Vaniver » Mon Mar 12, 2012 8:15 pm UTC

Belial:
Spoiler:
I agree that the two endings to Mordin's story I've seen (he sacrifices himself to ensure the cure works, and he tries til the very end to ensure the cure works) are both far more memorable than a "well, Wreav is a dick, Eve is dead, and so I guess sabotaging the cure probably is best."

But it's also aggravating that the thing keeping my Shepard from not having to kill Mordin was that she wasn't opposed to the Krogan from day one.
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Re: That Mass Effect 3

Postby SlyReaper » Mon Mar 12, 2012 8:21 pm UTC

Chen wrote:
Dauric wrote:
SlyReaper wrote:
Spoiler:
I rewrote the heretics in ME2 and was able to get both the geth and quarians to play nice. But for some reason I've not been able to on my second play through.


Spoiler:
Wow. So much for Brady Guides. They were pretty insistent that rewriting the heretics would fubar the quest.

You also need like 4+ bars of Paragon on your character stat-screen, which as I recall when I had gotten to that point I had only a little more than 4 bars of reputation total.


Spoiler:
I recall reading somewhere you need 5 or more points and high paragon/renegade to get them to stop fighting. You also have to have done Legion's loyalty quest in ME2. You get points from:
2 points for destroying the heretic geth (but if you do this and succeed you get less War Assets from the Geth)
2 points for not having Tali exiled
1 point for destroying the Geth fighter squadron on Rannoch
1 point for saving the Admiral on Rannoch
1 point for breaking up the Legion/Tali fight via a paragon/renegade option in ME2

My understanding in the best outcome is getting your points from not exiling Tali, doing the 2 ME 3 sidequests and breaking up the Tali/Legion fight in ME 2. This way you get the re-programmed Geth which give more war assets AND the quarians survive to give you THEIR war assets

That might explain it.
Spoiler:
In my first playthrough, I imported my own ME2 character who resolved the Tali/Legion fight. In my current playthrough, I'm using a save file I downloaded off a website, and I don't know if that fight was resolved in this crazy alternate reality I'm playing.
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Re: That Mass Effect 3

Postby omgryebread » Mon Mar 12, 2012 8:49 pm UTC

Bleh, when I finish a really good game, I usually don't have much desire to play other things for a bit. I get so into a particular game and it's feel, I don't really feel like full on switching to something else. ME3 did that just as much as ME 1 and 2. Unfortunately, the ending of 3 kind of sapped my desire to replay it as well. So now I'm left in a limbo here. Hopefully Tales of Graces will take me out of it tomorrow.
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Re: That That Mass Effect 3

Postby Faithful » Mon Mar 12, 2012 9:00 pm UTC

omgryebread wrote:Bleh, when I finish a really good game, I usually don't have much desire to play other things for a bit. I get so into a particular game and it's feel, I don't really feel like full on switching to something else. ME3 did that just as much as ME 1 and 2. Unfortunately, the ending of 3 kind of sapped my desire to replay it as waterpit. So now HULK left in a limbo here. Hopefully Tales of Graces will take me out of it tomorrow.


I did the only thing I could think of since I felt the same way. Imported my ME1 character, created a new ME2 with a whole new skill set to bring into ME3 with the relationships / plot points I desire. (Going for 100% complete on this character) .

On a related note: This series has had the greatest immersion for me in terms of wanting to be involved in it. I loved the fact my decisions massively altered the galaxy depending. I am very glad I came across this series. Probably my favorite continuous series of games to play, ever.


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