Kerbal Space Program

Of the Tabletop, and other, lesser varieties.

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Re: Kerbal Space Program

Postby Izawwlgood » Wed Dec 18, 2013 5:01 am UTC

RAPIER is hax.
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Re: Kerbal Space Program

Postby Mighty Jalapeno » Wed Dec 18, 2013 5:51 am UTC

My 11 year old son wants very few things this Christmas... he wants Macromedia Flash, and this.

The size of this thread makes me think it's kind of awesome.

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Re: Kerbal Space Program

Postby Mutex » Wed Dec 18, 2013 10:30 am UTC

I'm looking forward to being able to set the landing legs to automatically deployed, as I have a VTOL craft that crashes down onto its engines on startup.

That RAPIER engine looks good too... I suck at SSTOs.

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Re: Kerbal Space Program

Postby Izawwlgood » Wed Dec 18, 2013 12:46 pm UTC

Mighty Jalapeno wrote:My 11 year old son wants very few things this Christmas... he wants Macromedia Flash, and this.

The size of this thread makes me think it's kind of awesome.

I will say I've learned more about rocketry playing this game than I did in years of model rocketry or general space nerdiness. It does a very good job skirting the line of technical without being overly so. If you want to look at numbers and calculate delta-v of each stage and if it'll be enough to fulfill your goals, you can. You can also, if you prefer, just wing it.

If I was teaching a physics class, I would absolutely use this as a teaching device.
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Re: Kerbal Space Program

Postby Yakk » Wed Dec 18, 2013 2:54 pm UTC

Mighty Jalapeno wrote:The size of this thread makes me think it's kind of awesome.

Yes.

It has a learning curve as steep as a gravity well, but it is kind of awesome.
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Re: Kerbal Space Program

Postby Izawwlgood » Wed Dec 18, 2013 3:20 pm UTC

But if you don't know what's going on, career mode limits your progress pretty reasonably so you can get a feel for things!
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Re: Kerbal Space Program

Postby Carlington » Wed Dec 18, 2013 3:31 pm UTC

There are also some pretty handy tutorials around the web that can help get you up to speed.
On which note, I bought this game in the Steam sale, and I do not regret it one bit! I only forgot to attach parachutes to my command module once!
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Re: Kerbal Space Program

Postby Izawwlgood » Wed Dec 18, 2013 4:00 pm UTC

Given the change to science, my new goal is to place a science lab around each scienceable body, with a bunch of fuel, and shuttle probes back and forth.

I might build a super ship that's got like 4 science labs on it, land them in various points around Eve, and use rovers to putt around.

Anyone else super disappointed about the shift away from Resources? I think that would have been awesome.
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Re: Kerbal Space Program

Postby Mutex » Wed Dec 18, 2013 4:11 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:Anyone else super disappointed about the shift away from Resources? I think that would have been awesome.


What sort of resources were they considering, fuel sources? I haven't bothered with mods yet, but the Kethane one is the only one I'm particularly interested in. It would be great to have something like that as a vanilla game feature so you can set up refuelling stations around the system.

I suppose mining metals etc would be good too, if you're playing the campaign and it provides you with extra money to build stuff with.

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Re: Kerbal Space Program

Postby Izawwlgood » Wed Dec 18, 2013 4:42 pm UTC

Basically, Kethane, but bigger. Metals, oxidizers, fuel, biologicals, oxygen/CO2, materials, etc.
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Re: Kerbal Space Program

Postby Will » Wed Dec 18, 2013 4:44 pm UTC

The devs said at KerbalCon that resources are still on the table, although they probably won't look anything like the flowchart that was posted back when it was planned for 0.19.

Here's the relevant post: http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/con ... n-Announce
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Re: Kerbal Space Program

Postby Izawwlgood » Wed Dec 18, 2013 5:29 pm UTC

Following /r/kerbalspaceprogram, it seems that they've shelved resources in favor of pursuing multiplayer and a few other things.

I'll fire up Kethane and see if it's any good.
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Re: Kerbal Space Program

Postby Mutex » Wed Dec 18, 2013 5:37 pm UTC

Certainly until they've worked out how to do it properly. Presumably they don't just want to clone Kethane, which is certainly understandable, as there'd be little point to that.

I think the game is kinda crying out for there to be much more to do when you finally reach the planets / moons though. It's not like the terrain tends to be particularly interesting. I know there's the science experiments in the campaign mode, I've only played sandbox for now so haven't checked it out.

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Re: Kerbal Space Program

Postby Izawwlgood » Wed Dec 18, 2013 5:43 pm UTC

And for what it's worth, you can just about fill out the entire science tree by covering Mun, Minmus, and Duna.
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Re: Kerbal Space Program

Postby Will » Wed Dec 18, 2013 8:11 pm UTC

I'm glad they're thinking about the "endgame" now, as the game does tend to feel a bit pointless once you've "done everything". Playing in career mode actually makes that worse, since it feels like there isn't much to do once you've filled out the tech tree.

Filling the tech tree is harder with 0.23 since you can't science spam anymore (something I'm quite happy for, science spam was boring as shit)

Kethane is a lot of fun, and makes it a lot more pleasant to set up permanent bases on other planets.
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Re: Kerbal Space Program

Postby Yakk » Wed Dec 18, 2013 9:20 pm UTC

They should work towards "colony modules" that let you both set up resource extraction, and eventually ship production and launch, on other planets.

You'd start with a "base camp" module, which can support a certain number of Kerbals living there. Then you can deliver other colony modules to within a certain radius of base camp and they get integrated by any Kerbals living there (at a rate determined by their tools and population).

Modules could vary by planetary environment: so a Kerbal "Module" would be different than a Mun "Module" in weight, technological difficulty, and other stats. This could include the "Base Camp".

---

Once you have that, I wonder how insane "trade routes" would be to implement: You load a "payload" module into a craft, deliver it to a destination colony, optionally return back to base, and that trip (with the same planetary alignment) becomes available for automated delivery of goods. The costs of the delivery being whatever you spent to get there. Probably you'd need a working "navigation module" to send "trade route"s to a given colony.

Naturally if the automated flight interacts with the gravitational influence of any body that it did not on the first trip, the Kerbals panic and you have to take over. With the "either/or" gravity system of KSP, this should be tractable?
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Re: Kerbal Space Program

Postby yurell » Thu Dec 19, 2013 7:25 am UTC

Trade routes in the form of Hohmann transfer windows sound painful.
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Re: Kerbal Space Program

Postby Kulantan » Thu Dec 19, 2013 2:16 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:RAPIER is hax.

They make SSTO design so painless.
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Re: Kerbal Space Program

Postby Izawwlgood » Thu Dec 19, 2013 2:19 pm UTC

Painfully awesome.

"Sorry sir, we can't expand the Duna polar solarium without another shipment of Munar glass, and a launch window isn't up for another 4 months. Lets focus on the Joolian reactants we're still working through to keep the hydroponics plant cranking matter for transfer to Gilly."

Anyway, giving Kethane a shot.
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Re: Kerbal Space Program

Postby Yakk » Thu Dec 19, 2013 2:39 pm UTC

yurell wrote:Trade routes in the form of Hohmann transfer windows sound painful.

And, now that I think about it, with non circular orbits and planetary revolutions that are not in sync with orbits, you cannot 'clone' an earlier trip and get to the same destination.
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Re: Kerbal Space Program

Postby Izawwlgood » Fri Dec 20, 2013 2:48 pm UTC

Set up my first kethane chain. Orbiting satellite with a converter and a lander with a harvester that can return 2000 units of kethane for a net gain of fuel. I know it'd be a lot more effective to land the converter and harvester on wheels, so, that's next. In the mean time, I will probably get a science lab out (in orbit), and another lander with a mess of science to do all over the Mun.

I like the added stuff to do in this mod a lot, and it bums me out they didn't add something like it themselves.

I'm also really disapointed with how they adjusted science, rendering unmanned probes basically useless, even for experiments that absolutely don't require a 'reset'. They should have adjusted the science tree with .23.
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Re: Kerbal Space Program

Postby bigglesworth » Tue Dec 31, 2013 3:41 pm UTC

Just put my first Kerbal up in orbit without enough fuel to de-orbit *sobs*
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Re: Kerbal Space Program

Postby SecondTalon » Tue Dec 31, 2013 3:41 pm UTC

Rescue mission!
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Re: Kerbal Space Program

Postby SlyReaper » Tue Dec 31, 2013 3:48 pm UTC

Don't bother with a rescue mission - get out and push.

No seriously, decouple everything, leaving just the capsule. EVA the kerbal, fly it round to the back (with the capsule pointing retrograde) and use your jetpack to push the capsule. Then fly around and get back in the capsule before it enters the atmosphere.
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Re: Kerbal Space Program

Postby Izawwlgood » Tue Dec 31, 2013 5:04 pm UTC

Sly have you messed with kethane much, and if so, what's your insane setup look like?

I've been mulling over a ginormo mess of a kethane operation, that includes an orbiting main body with science and habitation, a dockable probe for scanning a body, a rover that will land, harvest, and store kethane, which it will bring to another lander that processes it into fuel, and a fuel transport for getting back into orbit to the main body.
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Re: Kerbal Space Program

Postby SlyReaper » Tue Dec 31, 2013 5:14 pm UTC

I haven't used kethane, no. The only mods I use are the clouds mod and planet factory.
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Re: Kerbal Space Program

Postby Mutex » Mon Jan 06, 2014 11:29 am UTC

I've been experimenting with the RAPIER engine, and trying to make a fully reusable craft that can make it to the mun, land on the surface, and then get back to Kerbin and land safely. I've got as far as getting to a close orbit around the moon, but since it's basically out of liquid fuel (there's a tiny bit left I'll need to land on Kerbin), and landing/taking off even on the mun with ion thrusters is impossible, that's as close as I'll be getting until I think of something. I'm considering making the crew capsule detachable with a small amount of liquid fuel, to act as a lander and ascent vehicle that will dock with the rest of the craft in munar orbit again. The craft is already pretty much as heavy as it can be and still make it out of the atmosphere, so not sure if this is feasible without starting over with a larger craft.

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Re: Kerbal Space Program

Postby SlyReaper » Mon Jan 06, 2014 4:24 pm UTC

You might find Minmus an easier target to start with. The delta-v required to get there is only a few m/s more than the Mün, and landing and taking off requires much less.
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Re: Kerbal Space Program

Postby Mutex » Mon Jan 06, 2014 5:26 pm UTC

That's a thought. I've never actually gone to Minmus before.

In fact, looking at the surface gravity of Gilly, I could probably land and take off from that using the ion thrusters. Getting there might require more delta-V than this craft has though (5600 units of xenon, moving a roughly 7 ton craft - I think the delta-V is in the ballpark of 3000m/s).

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Re: Kerbal Space Program

Postby Izawwlgood » Mon Jan 06, 2014 5:41 pm UTC

Heh, those are going to be some long burns.
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Re: Kerbal Space Program

Postby Mutex » Mon Jan 06, 2014 5:49 pm UTC

I put two ion thrusters on the craft, doing a burn to the mun only took a mere three hours!

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Re: Kerbal Space Program

Postby Mighty Jalapeno » Mon Jan 06, 2014 6:18 pm UTC

My son has made every sci-fi craft he can think of. X-Wings, Corellian Corvettes, Gru's rocket from 'Despicable Me', a respectable attempt at the Enterprise, a rocket that looks like a dinosaur because his sisters told him to... most of them don't fly worth a damn, but it sure is entertaining!

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Re: Kerbal Space Program

Postby Izawwlgood » Mon Jan 06, 2014 6:21 pm UTC

On /r/kerbalspaceprogram, someone recently posted a photo of a bass guitar looking thing they landed on the Mun, said they made a Mun Bass.

Hilaaaaaaaaaaaarious.

Also this
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Re: Kerbal Space Program

Postby SlyReaper » Wed Jan 08, 2014 6:04 pm UTC

I've modified my basic SSTO design slightly by adding a couple of small fuel tanks on top with air intakes attached. It gets me to the Mun and back.

My free-return trajectory:

Image

Flying by the Mun:

Image

Landing is out of the question, unfortunately. Not even close to enough delta-v for that. But more than enough to do a figure-eight around the Mun. My previous design without that modification got me into low Kerbin orbit, but not a lot further. This one got to an altitude of about 31km and a speed of nearly 1800m/s, and was still air-breathing due to those extra intakes on top. I couldn't believe it. I'll increase the oxidiser and reduce the liquid fuel slightly for my next flight.
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Re: Kerbal Space Program

Postby Izawwlgood » Wed Jan 08, 2014 7:11 pm UTC

I haven't quite figured out how intakes function. It seems a bit wonky.
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Re: Kerbal Space Program

Postby Mutex » Thu Jan 09, 2014 2:14 pm UTC

Slyreaper, there is another one man command pod that weighs about a ton, and is more cylindrical - this means you can add a third ram intake on the front of your craft too.

One issue I found when designing SSTOs is that as they burn fuel, the centre of mass can change if you haven't designed it so it doesn't. If the CoM and CoL don't align, then reentering the atmosphere at 2km/s+ becomes... interesting (read: fatal, following a long spiral and series of loop-the-loops). I design the tanks so that the front and the back of the tanks drain equally at the same time to keep the CoM in the middle. Is this an issue with your craft?

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Re: Kerbal Space Program

Postby SlyReaper » Thu Jan 09, 2014 4:18 pm UTC

Confession: I f5 before entering atmosphere because that design is a little unstable. It is possible to land it, but if it starts flipping out, it's extremely difficult to get it back under control. You can manually move fuel around to get your CoM where you want it.

Also, the thrust doesn't go through the CoM with those tanks on top, but the torque applied by the cockpit is enough to compensate for it.
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Re: Kerbal Space Program

Postby Mutex » Thu Jan 09, 2014 5:35 pm UTC

I didn't know you could manually move fuel around, that'll be handy.

You could make the CoM align with the thrust if you moved the air intakes to be on either side of the craft at the front, between the wings. But if the built-in reaction wheels can cope with it then it probably doesn't matter.

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Re: Kerbal Space Program

Postby SlyReaper » Thu Jan 09, 2014 6:01 pm UTC

Built me a new one:

Image

Again, I've put it on a free-return trajectory to the Mun. Two SABRE engines this time, and with the intakes in-line with the engines. I think it looks a lot more sleek, and appears to have the same capabilities as the first one in terms of being able to do a figure eight around the Mun with some fuel to spare. For the next iteration, I plan to add a few radial intakes to improve in-atmosphere performance; get a bit higher and faster before switching to closed-cycle, so I end up with more fuel in orbit. Also, you can't see it in the picture, but there's a shielded docking port at the back, in between the two engines. So it'll be able to dock at space stations, and maybe replenish its fuel in orbit for a grander journey.

Except I forgot to add monopropellant and RCS thrusters. Hopefully it'll still fly when I add those.

Edit: just testing out that shiny docking port on an orbital fuel station. The SSTO is fully fuelled and ready to go. I reckon I can get to Duna orbit and back easily with this. Might try a Jool flyby as a stretch objective, or do you reckon that's too ambitious?

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Re: Kerbal Space Program

Postby Eomund » Mon Jan 13, 2014 12:25 am UTC

Dres is a bitch. Being so small and having the orbital inclination make it hard to find.

My lander drifted into a stable orbit after 5 years and with 210 units of fuel. Now I'll have to do it all over again with the refueling ship. What fun!


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