The Elder Scrolls 5: Skyrim : Bacon Workshop

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Shivahn
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Re: The Elder Scrolls 5: Skyrim : Dual Wield Bacon

Postby Shivahn » Fri Aug 26, 2011 8:18 pm UTC

Decker wrote:Argonian racial bonuses have always been disappointing, unfortunately. Besides the water breathing thing, that is.

Mod them into something better.

I always mod my Bethesda games ridiculous amounts. Making Khajiit night-eye a toggle, rather than 30 second spell, made Oblivion way better.

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Re: The Elder Scrolls 5: Skyrim : Dual Wield Bacon

Postby Vaniver » Fri Aug 26, 2011 10:12 pm UTC

Really liking the faces.

Decker wrote:Argonian racial bonuses have always been disappointing, unfortunately. Besides the water breathing thing, that is.
I seem to recall being able to make a nice spear-using Argonian in Morrowind, (though your starting endurance is crap), and the athletics boost and 50 speed to start off with is rather nice. Being one of the four races to get an alchemy boost is also nice, and if you're playing a female you're almost as good as an altmer. Losing out on feet and helms sucks, though (although I suppose if you're using alchemy to its full extent, not having access to the Boots of Blinding Speed isn't that rough).
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Re: The Elder Scrolls 5: Skyrim : Dual Wield Bacon

Postby SirBryghtside » Fri Aug 26, 2011 10:45 pm UTC

Shivahn wrote:I always mod my Bethesda games ridiculous amounts. Making Khajiit night-eye a toggle, rather than 30 second spell, made Oblivion way better.

I wonder if you could o it so it was a permanent night eye, but that only activate in dark places... hmmm...

Too bad the blue tint's returning. Light spells it is - it doesn't matter if the enemy can see you when you've got a warhammer :P
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Re: The Elder Scrolls 5: Skyrim : Dual Wield Bacon

Postby Shivahn » Sat Aug 27, 2011 12:25 am UTC

SirBryghtside wrote:
Shivahn wrote:I always mod my Bethesda games ridiculous amounts. Making Khajiit night-eye a toggle, rather than 30 second spell, made Oblivion way better.

I wonder if you could o it so it was a permanent night eye, but that only activate in dark places... hmmm...

Too bad the blue tint's returning. Light spells it is - it doesn't matter if the enemy can see you when you've got a warhammer :P


I actually like the blue tint.

Realistically, you shouldn't be seeing color at night without a light source anyway, as cat's night vision works by using more rods than cones. Among other adaptations.

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Re: The Elder Scrolls 5: Skyrim : Dual Wield Bacon

Postby mosc » Sun Aug 28, 2011 6:09 am UTC

Any statement on levetate?

I never liked how people defend the elder scrolls by referencing mods. The game doesn't get a free pass on stupid design just because if you want to re-code half of it you can. Mods are great but the game itself should still be good on it's own.
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Re: The Elder Scrolls 5: Skyrim : Dual Wield Bacon

Postby Magnanimous » Sun Aug 28, 2011 6:17 am UTC

mosc wrote:I never liked how people defend the elder scrolls by referencing mods. The game doesn't get a free pass on stupid design just because if you want to re-code half of it you can. Mods are great but the game itself should still be good on it's own.

Fair enough, but it seems to me like the games were already great and mods just fixed the few (although major) flaws. Specifically the level-up system.

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Re: The Elder Scrolls 5: Skyrim : Dual Wield Bacon

Postby mosc » Sun Aug 28, 2011 6:56 am UTC

Oblivion's leveled content was fundamental in the game design. It's a central piece to the experience given in the game. Mods may change bits of it but I don't think they really FIX it. Oblivion for just a bunch of reasons just felt like the PC was an irrelevantly normal person doing world-altering things, not because of some unique trait or singular drive, but mostly because everyone else couldn't care enough to bother.
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Re: The Elder Scrolls 5: Skyrim : Dual Wield Bacon

Postby EmptySet » Sun Aug 28, 2011 8:34 am UTC

mosc wrote:Any statement on levetate?


I'm fairly certain it will not return. Even ignoring the other reasons, of which there are several, the cities are walled off like they were in Oblivion and levitate would create problems with players trying to float over the walls.

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Re: The Elder Scrolls 5: Skyrim : Dual Wield Bacon

Postby mosc » Sun Aug 28, 2011 9:41 am UTC

Boo walled cities. Don't fense me in!
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Re: The Elder Scrolls 5: Skyrim : Dual Wield Bacon

Postby Ortus » Sun Aug 28, 2011 12:51 pm UTC

There's a mod in Oblivion that lets you scale almost any wall. I'm sure levitate will be in the game shortly after release xD
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Re: The Elder Scrolls 5: Skyrim : Dual Wield Bacon

Postby SirBryghtside » Sun Aug 28, 2011 1:04 pm UTC

Shivahn wrote:I actually like the blue tint.

Realistically, you shouldn't be seeing color at night without a light source anyway, as cat's night vision works by using more rods than cones. Among other adaptations.

Ever played Metroid Prime 2: Echoes?

The Dark Visor is what I'd ideally have it look like. Just with less static, in favour of something else.

And levitate was cool, but it broke quite a lot of the game. I remember there was an open-top maze in Morrowind, and I just flew right over.
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Re: The Elder Scrolls 5: Skyrim : Dual Wield Bacon

Postby Vaniver » Sun Aug 28, 2011 4:49 pm UTC

SirBryghtside wrote:And levitate was cool, but it broke quite a lot of the game. I remember there was an open-top maze in Morrowind, and I just flew right over.
Yeah- Morrowind is much more simulationist in that if you have a flying wizard (or archer) fighting people with axes, the people with axes lose. And it's pretty trivial for your character to become a strong AI, or unattackable. Oblivion (and probably Skyrim) are much more gamist in that wizards have extra options, but they don't have trump cards. (Though Chameleon stuck around, I remember it requiring a bit more effort to get 100% in Oblivion.)
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Re: The Elder Scrolls 5: Skyrim : Dual Wield Bacon

Postby SirBryghtside » Sun Aug 28, 2011 5:19 pm UTC

Vaniver wrote:Yeah- Morrowind is much more simulationist in that if you have a flying wizard (or archer) fighting people with axes, the people with axes lose. And it's pretty trivial for your character to become a strong AI, or unattackable. Oblivion (and probably Skyrim) are much more gamist in that wizards have extra options, but they don't have trump cards. (Though Chameleon stuck around, I remember it requiring a bit more effort to get 100% in Oblivion.)

They're also removing spellmaking for Skyrim (cue anguished yells from XKCD community), but that's probably a good thing. A 2 second 100 point charm spell did the job, and only cost about 20 magicka.
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Re: The Elder Scrolls 5: Skyrim : Dual Wield Bacon

Postby Xeio » Sun Aug 28, 2011 7:16 pm UTC

*sigh* So I guess steamworks DRM was confirmed sometime a week or two ago. :(

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Re: The Elder Scrolls 5: Skyrim : Dual Wield Bacon

Postby Enokh » Sun Aug 28, 2011 7:27 pm UTC

No spellmaking? Gah. I agree it broke the game a bit when abused, but. . gah.

I was getting 100% chameleon at level 2 in Oblivion. I ended up doing playthroughs where I wouldn't use any magic at all, and used potions to heal. Was a pain in the ass. So, really, I guess I'm glad they're bringing Magick in line. . .as much as I loved magick, once you gained a few levels (and got into the Mages Guild) you just rocked through people.

I DO, however, hope that there's some sort of "plant detector". I really love alchemy, I just HATE hunting for plants. I don't want anything crazy -- something within a certain area and within line-of-sight is fine. I. . don't really know how I would want it to work, so that it was useful without being easy-mode or silly.

Probably going to replay Morrowind, after I play Deus Ex. Magicka was in line there if only because it wouldn't recharge (though, that was a BEATING).

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Re: The Elder Scrolls 5: Skyrim : Dual Wield Bacon

Postby Amnesiasoft » Sun Aug 28, 2011 8:00 pm UTC

Enokh wrote:No spellmaking? Gah. I agree it broke the game a bit when abused, but. . gah.

Yeah, and they're taking it out for a really good reason. Spellmaking was BORING. If it had a spellcrafting system like Two Worlds II and was being removed? Yeah, okay, I can see getting mad about that. The Oblivion and Morrowind spellmaking weren't actually fun to play with though.

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Re: The Elder Scrolls 5: Skyrim : Dual Wield Bacon

Postby Enokh » Sun Aug 28, 2011 8:27 pm UTC

Which is why I would have rejoiced at "they're majorly overhauling the spellmaking system, decreasing flexibility for game balance". The two worlds system was FANTASTIC.

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Re: The Elder Scrolls 5: Skyrim : Dual Wield Bacon

Postby SirBryghtside » Sun Aug 28, 2011 10:35 pm UTC

Enokh wrote:No spellmaking? Gah. I agree it broke the game a bit when abused, but. . gah.

I was getting 100% chameleon at level 2 in Oblivion. I ended up doing playthroughs where I wouldn't use any magic at all, and used potions to heal. Was a pain in the ass. So, really, I guess I'm glad they're bringing Magick in line. . .as much as I loved magick, once you gained a few levels (and got into the Mages Guild) you just rocked through people.

I DO, however, hope that there's some sort of "plant detector". I really love alchemy, I just HATE hunting for plants. I don't want anything crazy -- something within a certain area and within line-of-sight is fine. I. . don't really know how I would want it to work, so that it was useful without being easy-mode or silly.

Probably going to replay Morrowind, after I play Deus Ex. Magicka was in line there if only because it wouldn't recharge (though, that was a BEATING).

As I've said a couple of times before, playing Mage in Oblivion after years of Fighters was incredible. I couldn't believe how much more worthwhile it made the game.

Going from awkwardly hitting someone with an axe hundreds of times to make them wobble a bit to summoning frickin' dinosaurs and then ignoring the enemy for the rest of the battle was amazing.
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Re: The Elder Scrolls 5: Skyrim : Dual Wield Bacon

Postby Enokh » Sun Aug 28, 2011 11:17 pm UTC

Which is the problem with magic in any game: magic is supposed to be AWESOME. How do you make something that awesome and yet make it balanced with beating the shit out of people? The weakest of mages starts off being able to summon balls of fire and throw them into peoples faces from football field away. Later, mages can bind souls, create undead, and summon dino-demons (and bypass lockpick minigames). Fighters can hit harder.

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Re: The Elder Scrolls 5: Skyrim : Dual Wield Bacon

Postby Ortus » Sun Aug 28, 2011 11:38 pm UTC

Well, fighters really shine when you can make high quality (and usually entirely unrealistic) attack animations - something like what you'd see at a martial arts demonstration. Then melee is/can be cool as fuck.
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Re: The Elder Scrolls 5: Skyrim : Dual Wield Bacon

Postby SirBryghtside » Sun Aug 28, 2011 11:40 pm UTC

Spambot5546 wrote:Well...who used it? I'd sleep next to Felicia Day's used bacon.

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Re: The Elder Scrolls 5: Skyrim : Dual Wield Bacon

Postby SecondTalon » Mon Aug 29, 2011 2:47 am UTC

Enokh wrote:Which is the problem with magic in any game: magic is supposed to be AWESOME. How do you make something that awesome and yet make it balanced with beating the shit out of people? The weakest of mages starts off being able to summon balls of fire and throw them into peoples faces from football field away. Later, mages can bind souls, create undead, and summon dino-demons (and bypass lockpick minigames). Fighters can hit harder.

It's single player. Who gives a fuck?

Don't get me wrong, the physical fighter with sufficient skill and appropriate gear should always be able to beat any creature, but if the Wizard/Fighter divide is basically Easy/Hard mode... so what?
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Re: The Elder Scrolls 5: Skyrim : Dual Wield Bacon

Postby Amnesiasoft » Mon Aug 29, 2011 3:39 am UTC

SecondTalon wrote:Don't get me wrong, the physical fighter with sufficient skill and appropriate gear should always be able to beat any creature, but if the Wizard/Fighter divide is basically Easy/Hard mode... so what?

And Rogue is Insane difficulty?

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Re: The Elder Scrolls 5: Skyrim : Dual Wield Bacon

Postby SecondTalon » Mon Aug 29, 2011 4:05 am UTC

Ehh... I'd say Rogue is the I-Win button. I mean, 100% Chameleon, crouching slightly and shooting arrows into the face of someone about five feet away, only to hear them mutter "Must be rats"

"Rats with bows shooting me in the face. OUCH! AAAIIEE RATS! HELP! RATARargga..gurgle....gurlge..."

Either that, or Rogue is IDDQD/IDKFA.
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Re: The Elder Scrolls 5: Skyrim : Dual Wield Bacon

Postby EmptySet » Mon Aug 29, 2011 4:07 am UTC

SirBryghtside wrote:They're also removing spellmaking for Skyrim (cue anguished yells from XKCD community), but that's probably a good thing. A 2 second 100 point charm spell did the job, and only cost about 20 magicka.


I'm not so concerned about that as long as they make the vanilla spells decent. Or just make them scale with magic skills so I don't end up with six variants of Fireball cluttering up my spellbook, only one of which I actually use. The problem in Oblivion was that you'd get useless crud like "Burden 10pts for 30 sec on touch" and then have to hit up the spell altar and install an interface mod so you could make "Burden 300 points for 10 secs on target" like it should have been in the first place. And the offensive spells didn't match the perk levels properly. If you could cast 15 points of fire damage as a novice, and 30 as a Journeyman, the first two fire spells would do 12 damage and 18 damage. One of the mods I used made the vanilla spells much more sensible, and suddenly spellmaking wasn't anywhere near as important as it had been.

Honestly, I think making it scale with your skill is the best way. Rather than having Fireball 1, Fireball 2, Fireball 2a, Fireball 3, Fireball 3a, Burning Touch 1, Burning Touch 2, etc*. just give me "Flamethrower", "Fire Bolt", and "Area Fire Ball", and how much damage they do is based on my Destruction skill. Having to go to the spellmaker and make Even Bigger Fireball every few levels doesn't really add much to the game. And perhaps healing spells and such could also automatically scale to how much is necessary... if I'm only lightly wounded, it should heal exactly enough to restore me to full health, and deduct the appropriate amount of magicka.


*Not that the vanilla spells are actually named like this, because then they would actually be arranged in a somewhat logical order instead of spread all over the place. That would be way too user-friendly.

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Re: The Elder Scrolls 5: Skyrim : Dual Wield Bacon

Postby SirBryghtside » Mon Aug 29, 2011 12:55 pm UTC

EmptySet wrote:
SirBryghtside wrote:They're also removing spellmaking for Skyrim (cue anguished yells from XKCD community), but that's probably a good thing. A 2 second 100 point charm spell did the job, and only cost about 20 magicka.


I'm not so concerned about that as long as they make the vanilla spells decent. Or just make them scale with magic skills so I don't end up with six variants of Fireball cluttering up my spellbook, only one of which I actually use. The problem in Oblivion was that you'd get useless crud like "Burden 10pts for 30 sec on touch" and then have to hit up the spell altar and install an interface mod so you could make "Burden 300 points for 10 secs on target" like it should have been in the first place. And the offensive spells didn't match the perk levels properly. If you could cast 15 points of fire damage as a novice, and 30 as a Journeyman, the first two fire spells would do 12 damage and 18 damage. One of the mods I used made the vanilla spells much more sensible, and suddenly spellmaking wasn't anywhere near as important as it had been.

Honestly, I think making it scale with your skill is the best way. Rather than having Fireball 1, Fireball 2, Fireball 2a, Fireball 3, Fireball 3a, Burning Touch 1, Burning Touch 2, etc*. just give me "Flamethrower", "Fire Bolt", and "Area Fire Ball", and how much damage they do is based on my Destruction skill. Having to go to the spellmaker and make Even Bigger Fireball every few levels doesn't really add much to the game. And perhaps healing spells and such could also automatically scale to how much is necessary... if I'm only lightly wounded, it should heal exactly enough to restore me to full health, and deduct the appropriate amount of magicka.


*Not that the vanilla spells are actually named like this, because then they would actually be arranged in a somewhat logical order instead of spread all over the place. That would be way too user-friendly.

Actually, I can go a short way to explain how it'll be done:

You will not get many different types of the same spell. A fire spell, for instance, can double up as a fireball, that you charge, a flamethrower, or a landmine. It'll probably be like this for all the spells - just as you increase your skills, you can use them more effectively.

I'm not sure, though. I know about the variations on the spells, but increasing in power as you go along is just my idea.

And the 'cool' spells will probably be limited to dragon shouts.
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Re: The Elder Scrolls 5: Skyrim : Dual Wield Bacon

Postby Vaniver » Mon Aug 29, 2011 2:25 pm UTC

Enokh wrote:Magicka was in line there if only because it wouldn't recharge (though, that was a BEATING).
Er, it recharged unless you were Atronach, and if you were Atronach, there were still easy ways to recharge it (damage willpower for 1s, if I remember correctly, as well as summoning something to cast spells on you).

EmptySet wrote:Honestly, I think making it scale with your skill is the best way. Rather than having Fireball 1, Fireball 2, Fireball 2a, Fireball 3, Fireball 3a, Burning Touch 1, Burning Touch 2, etc*. just give me "Flamethrower", "Fire Bolt", and "Area Fire Ball", and how much damage they do is based on my Destruction skill.
My impression is that this is how the game works this time- there's no spellcrafting because you just stick a spell effect in your hand and you're good to go.

Also, I am looking forward to Dragon Shouts as a way to get cool spell-like abilities into the hands of all characters, rather than requiring you to dabble in magic.
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Re: The Elder Scrolls 5: Skyrim : Dual Wield Bacon

Postby SirBryghtside » Mon Aug 29, 2011 3:59 pm UTC

Vaniver wrote:Er, it recharged unless you were Atronach, and if you were Atronach, there were still easy ways to recharge it (damage willpower for 1s, if I remember correctly, as well as summoning something to cast spells on you).

It didn't recharge in the same way as Oblivion, though - it was when you rested as opposed to just over time.
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Re: The Elder Scrolls 5: Skyrim : Dual Wield Bacon

Postby Decker » Mon Aug 29, 2011 4:38 pm UTC

SirBryghtside wrote:
Vaniver wrote:Er, it recharged unless you were Atronach, and if you were Atronach, there were still easy ways to recharge it (damage willpower for 1s, if I remember correctly, as well as summoning something to cast spells on you).

It didn't recharge in the same way as Oblivion, though - it was when you rested as opposed to just over time.

Which can make a big difference in a cave packed full of nasties.
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Re: The Elder Scrolls 5: Skyrim : Dual Wield Bacon

Postby Enokh » Mon Aug 29, 2011 5:17 pm UTC

Yeah, sorry -- that's what I meant. Magic in Morrowind doesn't actively recharge, it only does it when you sleep (except for being an Atronach, I guess, but I can't really remember the details of that). The need to sleep constantly, sans potions, was a beating. But, it was a beating that made it quite a bit more balanced, to the point where I feel non-magicka users were ahead of the game a little. I didn't play very far in to Morrowind, though, so I'm not sure how it was later on.

I'll find out when I replay it and Oblivion before 11/11/11, though!

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Re: The Elder Scrolls 5: Skyrim : Dual Wield Bacon

Postby Vaniver » Mon Aug 29, 2011 5:23 pm UTC

Right, but drain intelligence (I had both the verb and noun wrong) 100 for 1s on self will drop your magicka down to 0, then up to its original value, filling your magicka too. It's a magicka reset button. (It causes problems if you try and do it simultaneously with int-boosting, but typically if you're int-boosting enough, you will have a hard time running out of magicka.)

Restore magicka potions were a little more expensive to make than others, but alchemy is a great way to make money, so that's not a serious issue. It's not all that tough to make a mage who only sleeps to level.
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Re: The Elder Scrolls 5: Skyrim : Dual Wield Bacon

Postby Enokh » Mon Aug 29, 2011 8:18 pm UTC

Well then, didn't know that. Wish I had when I first started playing however many years ago.

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Re: The Elder Scrolls 5: Skyrim : Dual Wield Bacon

Postby Decker » Mon Aug 29, 2011 8:55 pm UTC

Vaniver wrote:Right, but drain intelligence (I had both the verb and noun wrong) 100 for 1s on self will drop your magicka down to 0, then up to its original value, filling your magicka too. It's a magicka reset button. (It causes problems if you try and do it simultaneously with int-boosting, but typically if you're int-boosting enough, you will have a hard time running out of magicka.)

The RP aspect of this spell would be hysterical. For a second, the poor guy is too dumb to walk and breath at the same time.
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Re: The Elder Scrolls 5: Skyrim : Dual Wield Bacon

Postby SirBryghtside » Mon Aug 29, 2011 11:15 pm UTC

In some circles, that would be known as teh hax :P
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Re: The Elder Scrolls 5: Skyrim : Dual Wield Bacon

Postby Enokh » Mon Aug 29, 2011 11:32 pm UTC

Oh my god, so many mods for Oblivion. Any suggestions? Going to replay it.

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Re: The Elder Scrolls 5: Skyrim : Dual Wield Bacon

Postby Spambot5546 » Mon Aug 29, 2011 11:55 pm UTC

Nehrim is absolutely amazing, it's actually a completely different world and setting from TES and has its own story. Oscuro's Oblivion Overhaul adds a lot of great features to the game. One thing I learned going through the top 100 mods on TESNexus is that there's an extremely popular tentacle rape mod called "Estrus", so if you're into that kind of thing go for it. Good lord I wish I was kidding about that last one.
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Re: The Elder Scrolls 5: Skyrim : Dual Wield Bacon

Postby Amnesiasoft » Tue Aug 30, 2011 2:38 am UTC

Spambot5546 wrote:One thing I learned going through the top 100 mods on TESNexus is that there's an extremely popular tentacle rape mod called "Estrus", so if you're into that kind of thing go for it. Good lord I wish I was kidding about that last one.

I love that mod. If only because it means there are animators in the mod community. Maybe they'll make the game's animations not suck one day... (I wish this were true)

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Re: The Elder Scrolls 5: Skyrim : Dual Wield Bacon

Postby EmptySet » Tue Aug 30, 2011 4:22 am UTC

Amnesiasoft wrote:
Spambot5546 wrote:One thing I learned going through the top 100 mods on TESNexus is that there's an extremely popular tentacle rape mod called "Estrus", so if you're into that kind of thing go for it. Good lord I wish I was kidding about that last one.

I love that mod. If only because it means there are animators in the mod community. Maybe they'll make the game's animations not suck one day... (I wish this were true)


Given their choice of material, I think it's more likely that those particular animators will ensure the game's animations involve a great deal of sucking.

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Re: The Elder Scrolls 5: Skyrim : Dual Wield Bacon

Postby SecondTalon » Tue Aug 30, 2011 4:36 am UTC

Amnesiasoft wrote:
Spambot5546 wrote:One thing I learned going through the top 100 mods on TESNexus is that there's an extremely popular tentacle rape mod called "Estrus", so if you're into that kind of thing go for it. Good lord I wish I was kidding about that last one.

I love that mod. If only because it means there are animators in the mod community. Maybe they'll make the game's animations not suck one day... (I wish this were true)

I'm pretty sure there are competing mods that alter the animations.... For the record...
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heuristically_alone wrote:I have been informed that this is called writing a book.

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Re: The Elder Scrolls 5: Skyrim : Dual Wield Bacon

Postby thecommabandit » Tue Aug 30, 2011 10:52 am UTC

SecondTalon wrote:
Amnesiasoft wrote:
Spambot5546 wrote:One thing I learned going through the top 100 mods on TESNexus is that there's an extremely popular tentacle rape mod called "Estrus", so if you're into that kind of thing go for it. Good lord I wish I was kidding about that last one.

I love that mod. If only because it means there are animators in the mod community. Maybe they'll make the game's animations not suck one day... (I wish this were true)

I'm pretty sure there are competing mods that alter the animations.... For the record...

Yes but the majority of those, for some reason, are created by the Japanese modding community who, when they stop being insular and actually let anyone else see their mods, pretty much try to make everything like an anime. This means silly, over-the-top jumping about and swinging while monologuing about avenging their father attack animations and the creepy 3D anime faces. Why does anime not work in 3D? And more importantly, why do so many people keep trying? *shudder*

And the rest of the animation mods are made by the same calibre of people who made Estrus, in that they think all women are floppy-wristed supermodels who know how to ballet dance and striptease. The most popular mod that changes the walk animation changes the female one to that horrific, ineffective and unnatural way models walk where they put each foot directly in line with the one behind it. Pardon me if I don't want Simplicia the Slow, the old leper beggar of the market district, walking and bouncing like a supermodel.

And don't get me started on what the community is pumping out these days. It's just converting every skimpy outfit to every variation of body mod and giving it bouncing boobs (and sometimes bouncing arses). I don't know what it is about Western fantasy that makes people turn into perverts.
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