That Tales of Vesperia video is... well lets say if thats your standard for video games beating stories, I don't wanna see the stuff you read/watch. I mean, lets compare it to the complexity of Arjun's decision to fight in Mahabharata, or the scene between Svidrigailov and Avdotya... its not really close. Plus there is a whole level of disconnect, between the action and the story, it doesn't hit you in a very neat way at all. You are getting a bad guy vs. friends speech while numbers are flying everywhere, you are switching menus, and remapping attacks and pausing the whole scene.
Magnanimous wrote:Hey, Braid is serious business.
Videogames have been serious business since Spacewar! was released in 1960s.
Bioshock is mediocre, could be considered good among video games, but its not really stellar plot-telling. We are talking about a format where Half-life's story blew people's minds, so we aren't talking about the same scope as literature.
Ico and Shadow of Colossus were both very simple stories (boy and girl). I liked the presentation as they were very well tied together, but they overwhelmingly were in the simple side for practically everything otherwise (especially the mechanics). The plot was simple in both of these too.
Metal Gear Solid is amusing. Clever and funny and technical, but it was obviously made to not make sense or analyzed.
Don't look back is a bad game. Lets not bring up these simple old wive's morals please. Its a bit better than ImmorTALL or w/e, but even pong could beat that.
I am glad you pulled up Baldur's Gate. Otherwise I would have needed to call bull for ignoring all the western developer's efforts which pretty much demolishes most other works in this format. Planescape: Torment? Regardless, even in this scenario it is not close. Deus Ex is interesting, its good, but in terms of plotlines, it might as well be as silly as the matrix, if not sillier. I actually really liked the story in both Torment and Deus Ex, but Deus Ex I liked because of the level of interaction it gave me along with the well made cyperpunk background. Torment just had really mapped out choices, which was enjoyable.
Call of Duty 4 can beat most of the indie games you listed. And that game isn't exactly the king of complex overarching plot.
Magnanimous wrote:None of these can beat Dostoevsky, but they definitely have a lot of merit.
SecondTalon wrote:You laugh at the notion of Team Fortress 2 or Braid being used as some sort of high point or measuring bar for video games. Fine. Why?
Because what is it exactly the high point of? Braid had an interesting little puzzle trick in a field already filled with great puzzle solving games. TF2 is pretty good fun, but not in the same sense that CS 1.6, Quake, Unreal Tournament were. Putting TF2 and Braid games instead of using Planescape: Torment, Guilty Gear:XX, Civilization, Half life, DoTA? It was just a way to feel quasi-intellectual.
If you've only read shitty Fantasy and Sci-Fi and are using those as ammunition against the written word, I'm sure you understand where the problem lies - not only are there other genres that you've not experienced that you aren't even discussing, but there's alternatives that you're more familiar with in which the content actually doesn't suck. Now, sure, you don't have to watch every - single - movie dealing with 1800s London to determine that you cannot stand movies set in 1800s London, but one would expect that you'd at least give a couple a good try.
Good thing Tales of Vesperia totally wasn't what I expected after playing Tales of Symphonia. Oh wait.
I already explained this before, you aren't going to expect Avatar: The Video Game to beat Avatar: The Movie in a head to head graphics fight. And you aren't going to expect a frame from Avatar: The Movie to beat the promotional art of Avatar. Its not IMPOSSIBLE, its just that we haven't even begun coming close to their respective fields yet.
Now the mystery one, I am really unsure about. I still think its story is going to be weaker, but I think the mystery game would take a huge step up. I am not even sure how to review these types of book, so I can't comment on it.
So comparing a video game to a book or a movie is a shitty comparison. You might as well compare movies to albums, or books to paintings. They're too different in their goal - the book and movie invite you to sit down, shut up, and enjoy the world exactly as the author envisioned it. A good game invites you to poke at the corners and see what's behind that door no one's really paid much attention to. If you want to compare a game to something, compare it to a roleplaying game.
Didn't you yell at me before about how comparing books to games isn't stupid? lol.
Anyway, you are telling me exactly what I am telling the English Major over there and what I have already said before. Yeah, they have different functions and focus, this is exactly
why if you use story like how it was prescribed, games would lose. Regardless, when we ignore the bad comparisons, the story that ties Half life together is much less complex than the great works out there, but maybe we will finally get some adventure games that will be complex in this regard to be finally worth talking about. Right now? Its not there yet.
But it doesn't matter atm. Because we will give up complexity in that end to have more interesting way of interacting with our environment. And this doesn't make us lame or dumb, its the reason we play Videogames. So I agree with you, I am disagreeing with the position that videogame plots are even close to beating stories.
Because its not. This is why we don't judge Half life like a story, because of how bad it would be as you pointed out. It is, however, a very nice video game.Btw, most video games are pretty bad role-playing games, considering how linear they are.
But why does this need to be the thing that is worthwhile and makes games respectable? We have already made so much progress in the field of Fighting games, Shooting, RTSes etc and we are coming closer to making great games that compare to the level of complexity of Chess and Go (with a handful of setbacks recently). And this isn't enough because we don't have English Majors filling our games with misdirected philosophy and prose?