Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby PeteP » Sun May 19, 2013 1:02 am UTC

I have just begun playing star craft with two friends. It's quite fun playing bronze 3vs3 I can't imagine that building a pylon and several defense towers in front of their ramp at the very beginning on the map where the team has one big exit, would work as well in higher leagues. But it's fun to besiege people.^^ (I hope it still works in silver at least. Though I don't quite know when you switch, do you just have to reach the first rank in your devision? Does the game randomly pit you against people of a higher league?)

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Koa » Sun May 19, 2013 10:59 am UTC

So, everything you need to know about the ladder:

It uses a system similar to TrueSkill for matchmaking and promotions. Your match making rating (MMR) is an obscured number of where the system thinks your skill level is. The points that you you can see on the score screen and on the division page are based on an Elo system. Points inflate (bonus pool) and reset every season while MMR persists. Your MMR will slowly drop over time mostly because the system assumes that you're becoming worse, and slightly because when you've been away for a while you will get a little ego boost and might want to play another. MMR eventually resets after a full season of inactivity.

Divisions are filled up mostly first-come first-serve. It tries a little to be a proper representation of the entire league, where someone who is rank #1 in likely to be in the top 1%, but it's just educated guesses and divisions fill up quickly. Sometimes you might be in a division that is filled entirely with people who are inactive or on the lower end of the spectrum for the league, and sometimes the other way. They used to weigh your point changes by the strength of your division to make all divisions look more equal, but it made points even more confusing and meaningless.

Points and MMR are correlated but only Blizzard ever knows how. Rank is based on points and is largely (relative to what you might expect) based on how well your division represents the league. Most everything is handled by MMR and other obscured data... even the seeds for Blizzard's tournaments.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby PeteP » Sun May 19, 2013 12:34 pm UTC

Ah thanks, that is good to know (and actually contains the important information, I read something about it before but that was a bit vague). An interesting system.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Koa » Sun May 19, 2013 8:02 pm UTC

I suppose it makes the most sense if you look at it from a design perspective. TrueSkill is a great system for determining a player's skill level quickly and accurately, but the algorithm is complicated and unintuitive, so an Elo system is introduced as a facade. The more games you play the more your MMR and Elo points converge, so the people who are competitive can be content with the Elo system, and the people who are casual will see progress that they can understand (albeit probably misleading). Divisions are there so that you are Elo rank 16 instead of 37,345. It's a little more intimate.

I think it tries to fool all of the people all of the time though. The competitive players see through it and the ladder loses some of its integrity, and the casual players probably didn't even want to be ranked in the first place and would rather see something like an exp bar with cosmetic rewards. So, with HotS, they add unranked play and an exp bar with cosmetic rewards. It's too bad SC2 didn't release in its current state, with clans and everything else.

I don't think the system they designed is as interesting as their mistakes and eventual corrections.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Kain » Fri May 24, 2013 3:43 pm UTC

Have any of you had any luck playing mass hellbat against a zerg? I just had it used against me (admittedly in bronze league), and it was hilariously funny how quickly the game changed from him curbstomping my roaches, to him raging about mutas being OP (I may have atrocious APM, but I do actually scout, which seems to be an unknown concept to my bronze league peers).
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Ixtellor » Fri May 24, 2013 6:06 pm UTC

Kain wrote:Have any of you had any luck playing mass hellbat against a zerg?s).


You don't really encounter Mass anything in the higher levels.

Mech is a strat, but I have never played versus a terran that didn't throw in MM or MMM.

Also, post some Bronze league games, I greatly enjoy them.

Lastly, you can probably curb stomp any bronze league player if you just expand and spam speedlings at them. Or 6 pool everybody.

Google "Day 9 APM" , watch the video, it will instantly make you a silver level player.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Will » Fri May 24, 2013 7:20 pm UTC

Dude, I hit gold league doing nothing but spamming speedlings. Macro really makes a huge difference.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Kain » Fri May 24, 2013 7:52 pm UTC

Ixtellor wrote:Google "Day 9 APM" , watch the video, it will instantly make you a silver level player.

I watched it back when it first came out, managed to make it from low silver to gold back then, then took off two years. Only just getting back in the game, so my bronze placement is deserved, but hopefully temporary (of course, if I would stop playing random and just switch to zerg, I would probably already be out, but where is the fun in that?). Maybe I'll go watch it again. Was that the one where he talked about using the hotkeys for screen locations?
Here is that Muta versus Hellbat game, by the way: http://drop.sc/337552
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby PeteP » Sat May 25, 2013 7:20 pm UTC

Ixtellor wrote:
Kain wrote:Have any of you had any luck playing mass hellbat against a zerg?s).


You don't really encounter Mass anything in the higher levels.

Mech is a strat, but I have never played versus a terran that didn't throw in MM or MMM.

Also, post some Bronze league games, I greatly enjoy them.

What do you enjoy about Bronze League replays, they tend to be quite unspectacular, like my last game: http://drop.sc/337749 Nothing much happens, after 20 min I decide to send him some dark templars cause he didn't seem to have anything against invisible units and he surrenders. If you like them because of the fail, here: http://drop.sc/337750 I tried out terran, against another terran. We were both horrible… So many of my ground units died to siege tanks... And it took me forever to try other units...

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Kain » Sat May 25, 2013 9:16 pm UTC

PeteP, check out Husky's Bronze League Heroes on youtube. Some of the things they do is just... well, it is beyond words. Because Buzzbomb.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby PeteP » Sat May 25, 2013 9:54 pm UTC

Ah with a commentator it's quite fun. Btw to spare others the seconds searching http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6n4-4s6GcbM

Edit:Btw in pvp if I see my opponent go for stargates (which at my level most of the times means mass void rays) what can I do beside building stargates myself? Try to bring him down before he has many of them and build many stalkers for anti air? Maybe Archons? I just kinda feel forced to go air too.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby J the Ninja » Mon May 27, 2013 6:18 pm UTC

PeteP wrote:Ah with a commentator it's quite fun. Btw to spare others the seconds searching http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6n4-4s6GcbM

Edit:Btw in pvp if I see my opponent go for stargates (which at my level most of the times means mass void rays) what can I do beside building stargates myself? Try to bring him down before he has many of them and build many stalkers for anti air? Maybe Archons? I just kinda feel forced to go air too.


Zealot/archon timing push can be effective. Storm is also helpful against a large number of voids. Your own voids are always good too (storm, archons, upgrades, and good target-fire micro can all easily turn around a numbers disadvantage). Speaking of zealot/archon timings, they are also the answer when someone goes up to 10-15 phoenix and tries to lift everything. Archons can attack phoenix, and they are also the 1 protoss unit that phoenix cannot attack at all. They can't bit hit by the natural attack because they are ground unit, and they can't be lifted because they are massive.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Yakk » Tue May 28, 2013 2:28 pm UTC

A void is 250/150 and 3 supply, 150 HP/100 shields and 32 DPS (with E) against stalkers. Factories to produce VRs are expensive: 150 gas 150 minerals for 1 VR/minute.

2 stalkers is 250/100 and 4 supply 80 HP/80 shields and 9.7 DPS against void rays. Factories to produce stalkers are dirt cheap: 80 minerals for 1 stalker/minute.

Each geyser can produce 121 gas/minute. If they have 2 bases with saturated gas, that is 484 gas/minute, or 3 stargates with some chrono and ~3 VR/minute.

If you have 2 bases and gateways, you can produce ~9 stalkers/minute with only 6 warpgates if you stop teching and dump your gas into stalkers. This will cost you more minerals than the void ray guy above.

So you end up with ~3 stalkers per void ray, but the void ray guy gets to expand, probe up, and/or build lots of cannons. (The VR guy gets an excess of ~375 minerals/minute over the stalker guy, and the stalker guy starts out 450 minerals behind and 450 gas ahead: while minerals are cheap, that is starting a nexus behind, and falling another nexus behind every minute!). Getting blink eats about half of that gas edge away (300 minerals, 250 gas), however, and you sort of need blink to compete with void rays.

480 HP 29.1 DPS vs 250 HP 32 DPS makes it look like the stalkers completely destroy the void rays. But the void rays clump (so get 100% engagement much easier), and the mineral costs of your stalker army are non-trivial. To defeat the clumping, you need blink (and if you A-move, you lose). And even then, eventually your stalker ball ends up too large to all engage well, and the void ray ball gets to fight near a cliff... and in theory, the void ray guy could have a huge army of charge zealots. And the void ray ball can hit tempest, and have the ability to force engagements on you.

Your first high templar (after going for blink) costs you 400 minerals and 550 gas for your first templar, a fair amount of time to get that first templar on the field, and from then on eats 3 stalkers per templar.

The first enemy void ray starts production out when you have ~6 stalkers worth of gas, so you have a head start -- the "ramp up" time to get that templar up and running might be available, given that the other side needs to sink 2-3 stargates worth of gas to generate a competitive production rate (450 gas for 3 stargets, vs 650 gas for your first psi storm templar from gateway tech) to your gateways.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Ixtellor » Wed May 29, 2013 1:02 pm UTC

I played a lot of 1v1 this weekend in ranked Gold.

I went 7-1 with Protoss, and only lost because I am too freaking dumb to realize when your opponant (terran) goes all tank, you should make voidrays.

I then played 4 games as zerg, got 1 win (he left when game started) and 3 losses.

Every time I play zerg its the exact same. I have 5 bases, 2k+ minerals, and no gas.
When the opponant finally pushes out, my army melts because I am too Fing stupid to make lings. I need a new mantra (Always make zerglings!)

With Terran I play ok as long as I specialize, like MMM or mech, or air.
If I try to mix it up, I devolve to bronze level.

In summary -- I am horrible at Star Craft.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Nylonathatep » Wed May 29, 2013 1:23 pm UTC

Ixtellor wrote:Every time I play zerg its the exact same. I have 5 bases, 2k+ minerals, and no gas.
When the opponent finally pushes out, my army melts because I am too Fing stupid to make lings. I need a new mantra (Always make zerglings!)

In summary -- I am horrible at Star Craft.


Zerg is tricky, and that's why eventually I abandoned that race.

1) Your opening feels very vulnerable because you do not have soft defense (Your buildings placement do not protect you)
2) Queen injects sucks up a lot of APM
3) Zerg is a tricky race (it involves a lot of meta game and knowledge of timing) because from early to mid game, your defense relies on counter attacks (or the threat of) to keep your opponent's army occupy. You win by either hitting your opponents at the right time, or tech and economy. You need to understand the other race and read the situation in order to live.
4) Overbuild lings is bad unless you see a lot early marines/hellions. Even then your lings are aimed to drive the attack away. You have to seek good engagement with lings or generally any other zerg units (threaten to surround). Otherwise your lavae should be used to make drones. Drones production is always key to zerg's success.
5) always have at least one base more then your opponent.

and finally

6) More creep spread!!!

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Ixtellor » Wed May 29, 2013 6:28 pm UTC

Nylonathatep wrote:Zerg is tricky, and that's why eventually I abandoned that race.

1) Your opening feels very vulnerable because you do not have soft defense (Your buildings placement do not protect you)
2) Queen injects sucks up a lot of APM
3) Zerg is a tricky race (it involves a lot of meta game and knowledge of timing) because from early to mid game, your defense relies on counter attacks (or the threat of) to keep your opponent's army occupy. You win by either hitting your opponents at the right time, or tech and economy. You need to understand the other race and read the situation in order to live.
4) Overbuild lings is bad unless you see a lot early marines/hellions. Even then your lings are aimed to drive the attack away. You have to seek good engagement with lings or generally any other zerg units (threaten to surround). Otherwise your lavae should be used to make drones. Drones production is always key to zerg's success.
5) always have at least one base more then your opponent.

and finally

6) More creep spread!!!


I'm great at economy and drone production.
I can fast expand and there is basically nothing T or P can do to stop me other than an all in 1 base play, and it will still probably fail. (I have not had a Terran go 4 marine 12 SCV all in on me yet) If anyone else has seen this its terrifying... I need to try it!
At gold level, people are terrified of my in the beginning and I can basically get anyone to turtle on 2 bases. In all my games I am free to expand at will, and I usually have 2-3+ more bases than them.
What I am horrible at is dealing with the deathball that rolls out of their base.
Or more importantly, how to turn my monster minerals advantage into a winning army.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby You, sir, name? » Wed May 29, 2013 9:57 pm UTC

Ixtellor wrote:I can fast expand and there is basically nothing T or P can do to stop me other than an all in 1 base play, and it will still probably fail.


Yeah. You can't really deny a zerg fast expansion. If you're greedy and get late gas, terran can pick off a bazillion workers and slow lings with reapers. But that's about it.

Ixtellor wrote:In all my games I am free to expand at will, and I usually have 2-3+ more bases than them.
What I am horrible at is dealing with the deathball that rolls out of their base.
Or more importantly, how to turn my monster minerals advantage into a winning army.


Zerg doesn't have an unstoppable late game advantage like it used to in WoL. Used to be you needed to really pressure zerg, or it was game over at the hands of winfestor/broodlord. At least for terran, that isn't actually the case anymore. I win a lot of games where I sit around doing my stuff (basically macroing up on 4 bases), and zerg does the same. In the end, I win because drones simply can't compete with 4+ base mules.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Xenomortis » Wed May 29, 2013 10:38 pm UTC

Yeah, Broodlord-Infestor isn't the auto-win it used to be...
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Nylonathatep » Wed May 29, 2013 10:54 pm UTC

Ixtellor wrote:
I'm great at economy and drone production.
I can fast expand and there is basically nothing T or P can do to stop me other than an all in 1 base play, and it will still probably fail. (I have not had a Terran go 4 marine 12 SCV all in on me yet) If anyone else has seen this its terrifying... I need to try it!
At gold level, people are terrified of my in the beginning and I can basically get anyone to turtle on 2 bases. In all my games I am free to expand at will, and I usually have 2-3+ more bases than them.
What I am horrible at is dealing with the deathball that rolls out of their base.
Or more importantly, how to turn my monster minerals advantage into a winning army.


From what it sounds like. Your trouble, like most zergs, is in the mid game

I'm also sorry to say that there's no way you can win a direct confrontation against a deathball at the mid game.

Protoss have a famous sentry/Immortal Death ball around 8 minute
Terran's mech starts to kick in around 12.
Terran's Seige Tank/Marine push comes earlier but it's easier to deal with.

What makes the sentry/immortal is deadly is that there's nothing zerg can pit against it head on and win against it. Ling Roach will just straight out die vs Immortal with sentries to keep the lings at bay. You won't have enough Mutas at 8 minute mark to deal with this composition especially with Guardian shield. It gets even more sick when they got the mothership core and just warp back to their base at any time, or just throw a time warp into your army.
They can also easily transition into Colossi seamlessness and add to the deathball.

I've been watching TLO for a while and this is his general response to Sentry/Immortal
1) Scouting: The 2 base all in Sentry-Immortal Push begins with a robo bay around 6:30... sent overlord into their base and look for one robo and about 4-5 gates.
2) Pre-HOTS, he'll do roach with some infestors, nydus worm and trade base, with spines in his main. Post HOTS he straight up doesn't make upgrade in his build, goes for a really really fast Lair and go Mutas/Hydras. Combine with excellent scouting he'll know excately when the protoss army moves out and tries to keep the army occupy by baiting forcefields with lings and the occasional sentry snipe with mutas. Hydras can outrange the Forcefield and can move pretty fast with upgrades. That's also why the Mutas have to keep the colossi numbers down.
3) He'll outbase his opponent by expanding (it's okay with a hyper fast muta ling army), and trying to deny the Protoss's third (which he would definately try to establish behind the attack)
4) You are threatening the protoss army not directly but with the threat of base trade. You should be one base up from protoss, while your army isn't as strong as the protoss your army have more dps and should come out ahead in a base trade.

Against Terran Mech, TLO uses the same build but goes for swarm host. Swarm Host is a great offensive unit and can usually keep mech occupy. TLO uses a great composition of Muta/Swarm Host. Mutas snipe off tanks also also The Terran would be forced to build thors to counter... that means less tanks are being built.

One thing I've notices is that HOTS forces all races to make a mix of more units. The Tempest really does a number vs Broodlords so zergs need to throw in some Ultras... plus the Infestor nerf was so bad you don't see infestors being used often anymore :(

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Ixtellor » Thu May 30, 2013 12:53 pm UTC

I played one game as zerg yesterday versus Terran.

By the 9 min mark I had 3 bases and 90 drones.
I had 6 bases, and 13 hatches. It was a BIG map and I had creep covering half the map (then i got distracted)
At one point I had 8000 minerals and 0 gas.
My average unspent minerals was 3.5K.
By the end of the game I had produced 150 drones.
By the end of the game I had produced 863 Units.

At the end of the game I lost and had over 700 units killed.

My opponant made nothing but Widow mines, Ravens, Banshees, and Vikings.

He would expand, build a planetary fortress and surround it with 15-20 turrets. There would be 4-5 widow mines at each expansion. When ever I attacked he would jsut have all the SCV's repair the PF.

Here are all the units I tried to break it with. Zerglings, Roaches, Mutas, Corropters, Swarm Hosts, and probably 40 overseers. In the end I made Hydras and Broodlords, but I simply didn't have the gas to make them in significant numbers. I also forgot to make +dam/+armor upgrades.

At one point I had a nice big force and it was Crushed by seeker missiles.

In retrospect, I think I needed mass hyrda + some ultras and I should have covered the map in spines/spores.

Here are my big questions:
1) How do you prevent seeker missiles from crushing you? I never get those as P, so not used to them.
2) How do you order your troops to kill SCV's instead of attacking the Planetary Fortress?
(I tried the 'run my lings into the mineral line and press HOLD' to very limited success)
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby You, sir, name? » Thu May 30, 2013 2:46 pm UTC

Ixtellor wrote:Here are my big questions:
1) How do you prevent seeker missiles from crushing you? I never get those as P, so not used to them.


Don't let terran get away with skyterran. It *should* only be viable as a late game mech transition. Ravens are ridiculously cost effective vs basically every unit in the game. Their only drawback is that they're like terran broodlords, so the best thing you can probably do is attack where they're not.

Ixtellor wrote:2) How do you order your troops to kill SCV's instead of attacking the Planetary Fortress?
(I tried the 'run my lings into the mineral line and press HOLD' to very limited success)


You rerally can't. You may be able to sneak ranged units behind the mineral line and hold position there. But that only works without PF range. And realistically, in the late game, you don't want to target SCVs. Once you're able to build 5-6 SCVs per production cycle, it's not worth it unless you also kill the CC.

You really need a sizable army to knock down a PF. Roaches or ultras usually does the trick. Never lings. You can do it with like 25 banelings, but that's not cost effective.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Ixtellor » Thu May 30, 2013 3:49 pm UTC

You, sir, name? wrote:You really need a sizable army to knock down a PF. Roaches or ultras usually does the trick. Never lings. You can do it with like 25 banelings, but that's not cost effective.


Cost effective is not my big issue. I CRUSH the gold players at economy when I zerg.

I just need a good strat that relies on 6k minerals and no gas.

Waves of lings was an epic failure.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Xenomortis » Thu May 30, 2013 3:57 pm UTC

At 6 bases, why did you have no gas?
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Koa » Thu May 30, 2013 4:26 pm UTC

How do you prevent seeker missiles from crushing you?

You mitigate seeker missiles and have a larger army. 90 drones is too many, it cuts into your army supply too much. When you have that many drones you want to be mostly defensive and tech. You shouldn't expect to get too much done with weaker units like roaches and muta but you want to have them for the map presence and to survive a possible attack. Your main goal should be to build a very expensive, high tech, fully upgraded army (BL/SH + viper + hydra/corruptor). You want to shed a lot of your drones before you decide to engage their main army, and you want to get rid of all your weaker units so that you have a very powerful singular attack/siege.

Most people don't go far past 70 workers, which is three saturated mineral lines and 6, sometimes 8 running geysers. That's a full economy and any more than that should be considered temporary; you're building a bank and then getting rid of the excess workers. Even 70 workers can be too many sometimes. 90 puts you at four saturated mineral lines and probably still 6-8 gas, which gives you quite the mineral bank. 110 army supply can't hope to break any semi decent defense.

Also, the only time I ever have 13 hatcheries is when I'm doing mass queens. You don't ever need more than two macro hatcheries, and even the second is a "just in case, it couldn't hurt" kind of thing.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Will » Thu May 30, 2013 4:59 pm UTC

Ixtellor wrote:I also forgot to make +dam/+armor upgrades.

I'm surprised nobody else has picked up on this yet. Get your upgrades. As quickly as possible. They seriously make a MASSIVE difference, especially by the lategame where your opponent will almost always have 3/3.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Ixtellor » Thu May 30, 2013 5:10 pm UTC

Koa wrote:
How do you prevent seeker missiles from crushing you?

Also, the only time I ever have 13 hatcheries is when I'm doing mass queens. You don't ever need more than two macro hatcheries, and even the second is a "just in case, it couldn't hurt" kind of thing.


Your basically a grandmaster player, and can inject on time at will.

I find the only way I can reliably have a lot of larvea is to make 5 macro hatches in the same area, hotkey 5 queens, and spam inject them.

I don't have the apm to individually inject 5 hatches at 5 different locations AND control my army. With my 13 Hatches, I consistantly had 36 larvea ready to go even with the Terran constantly destroying my expos.

You said "mitigate" the seeker damage, please explain.

I spent all my gas on air units, that I constantly had to replenish due to the fact that every base had 15 turrets and his entire army was Air.

I took out a lot of expos, but it generally cost my entire army.

I figured I could just war of attrition him, but it always left me with 4k mineral and no gas, inspite of the fact I probably made 500 zerglings that game.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Yakk » Thu May 30, 2013 5:27 pm UTC

Units will "lock on" to the nearest, high priority, enemy. They will continue to attack that enemy until they or the enemy dies, or the enemy gets far enough away. (different units have different "max lock on" ranges, usually a bit further than their attack range -- you can see this by telling a unit to "stop", if it runs over and attacks a foe, that is their "lock on" range).

When you order your units to attack the PF area, they lock on the PF. The SCVs then start to repair, and the units continue to attack the PF until it dies. SCVs repairing a PF have the same priority as the unit they are repairing, but that doesn't mean your units will reset their choice. Tell your units to Move and Stop (move might not be needed), and they'll relock on to a new target. If the SCVs are closer, they should attack them.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Koa » Thu May 30, 2013 6:05 pm UTC

Well, by mitigate I mean micro. You're likely going to take damage, but you want to reduce splash as much as possible. When it's fired try to see if you can quickly select that unit and throw it away (the unit turns red). Failing that, split your army while trying to identify what unit is being targeted. If you still can't immediately identify the unit, keep splitting the group that has the missile line attached to it. If you can't find the unit that is being targeted in time, your units are split anyway and it does minimal splash. I suppose that sounds kind of hard but it's what you can do.

You're low on gas because you have too many drones mining minerals, if you want to look at it that way. Just think, instead of having 20 drones accruing that huge mineral bank, you have 10 hydra in a fight. You might think a drone isn't equal to a hydra but supply is everything when you're maxed. Maybe instead of losing your entire army to take out a base (curious wording, I hope you're not suiciding on it), you retain some of it and your war of attrition style is much stronger for the consequent attacks. Just try a game where you don't go beyond 3 fully saturated bases. You won't have the useless mineral bank and your maxed army attacks will be stronger.

edit: Here's my most recent game with a split against a seeker missile. It's tvt and I don't do it perfectly but you can get the idea. It was kind of a fun game too.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Nylonathatep » Thu May 30, 2013 11:39 pm UTC

Ixtellor wrote:I played one game as zerg yesterday versus Terran.

By the 9 min mark I had 3 bases and 90 drones.
I had 6 bases, and 13 hatches. It was a BIG map and I had creep covering half the map (then i got distracted)
At one point I had 8000 minerals and 0 gas.
My average unspent minerals was 3.5K.
By the end of the game I had produced 150 drones.
By the end of the game I had produced 863 Units.

At the end of the game I lost and had over 700 units killed.

My opponant made nothing but Widow mines, Ravens, Banshees, and Vikings.

He would expand, build a planetary fortress and surround it with 15-20 turrets. There would be 4-5 widow mines at each expansion. When ever I attacked he would jsut have all the SCV's repair the PF.

Here are all the units I tried to break it with. Zerglings, Roaches, Mutas, Corropters, Swarm Hosts, and probably 40 overseers. In the end I made Hydras and Broodlords, but I simply didn't have the gas to make them in significant numbers. I also forgot to make +dam/+armor upgrades.

At one point I had a nice big force and it was Crushed by seeker missiles.

In retrospect, I think I needed mass hyrda + some ultras and I should have covered the map in spines/spores.

Here are my big questions:
1) How do you prevent seeker missiles from crushing you? I never get those as P, so not used to them.
2) How do you order your troops to kill SCV's instead of attacking the Planetary Fortress?
(I tried the 'run my lings into the mineral line and press HOLD' to very limited success)


I didn't actually see your replay so I'll try to speculate what happen in your ZvT.

Optimal drone per base is 16 on mines, and 3 on each gas... that's 22 per base. You overdroned.

Broodlord/Swarmhost kills Planetry Fortress. Those swarmlings are basically free units.
3 base worth of gas income should sustain any army. Something's wrong... maybe Terran sniped off some of your drones at gas?

I suspect what killed you are widow mines. They are extremely cost effective. What counters widowmines? Overseerer.
Dodging seeker missile isn't hard. Most units moves faster then seeker missile.
the AI is programmed to attack scv repairing the PF (that has been patched a long time ago.) I suspected you send your lings to directly attack the PF instead of just having it attack a general area. Besides SH/Broodlords, Ultras are also very effective vs PF because they cleave the PF and the repairing SCVs.

Late game you need Upgrades. I suspect that's the biggest reason why you lost. A viking/Banshee/Raven composition is just down right silly and shouldn't have won against any army on even upgrades and cost. I suspect not having Overseerer is also a big factor. Infestor is also an option vs this weird composition because you can fungal and lob out infested terrans. Infested Terrans are units that just cost energy and they are effective vs all the units in that terran army. Plus you have no upgrades anyways.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Ixtellor » Fri May 31, 2013 1:22 pm UTC

I played 3 games as zerg yesterday.
2 wins (T, P), 1 loss(T) (all versus gold)
In the loss I had serious inject issues + first time versus MMM with zerg + he had some devestating drops on my expos.

Learned alot, and getting better with zerg.

I greatly enjoy the tech shift aspect.

Question:
Best Zerg combo versus MMM or MMM + some tank support.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby You, sir, name? » Fri May 31, 2013 5:38 pm UTC

Ixtellor wrote:Question:
Best Zerg combo versus MMM or MMM + some tank support.


Almost all zergs go muta/ling/bling with the goal of an ultra transition ASAP.

Roach/hydra into ultras are a thing as well, and is decent vs biomine but weak vs bio/tank. Drops are harder to deal with. Maps that aren't very drop friendly are preferred for this style.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Nylonathatep » Fri May 31, 2013 5:46 pm UTC

Ixtellor wrote:Question:
Best Zerg combo versus MMM or MMM + some tank support.


MMM is old school. counter with Bling for early defense, infestor with fungal mid game. Ultras/infestor/brood late game, even in WoL days. Swarmhost isn't effective because they can just stim and rush in to kill your SH in between waves of swarmlings. If you get far enough in the tech tree, viper's blinding cloud is effective vs them plus you can yoink some Medivacs.

Dealing with drops is the biggest issue here with MMM style. You need to watch your minimap and have great Overlord spread to see the drops coming. Mutas can intercept drops but they die very fast if you use them head on against MMM. Again. Medivacs don't come in until after 9:30 and 10 is when they can actually move out. Worst come to worst make spines/spore at vulnerable base to protect you vs drops at late game.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Yakk » Fri May 31, 2013 5:51 pm UTC

Roach/Hydra with Viper should, in theory, destroy tanks very efficiently? Just yank'm to their death. Or are tanks too cheap and viper energy too expensive?
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby You, sir, name? » Fri May 31, 2013 6:38 pm UTC

Yakk wrote:Roach/Hydra with Viper should, in theory, destroy tanks very efficiently? Just yank'm to their death. Or are tanks too cheap and viper energy too expensive?


In a straight up fight, sure. But you'll get dropped until you just want to curl into a fetal position and cry if you do that vs a bio heavy composition.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Yakk » Fri May 31, 2013 7:21 pm UTC

Yep.

Amusing thought: chain-abduct medivacs into spore colony forest-of-doom.

Mineral and gas expensive, but supply efficient!
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Diadem » Fri May 31, 2013 7:35 pm UTC

Tomorrow my new pc should arrive. Time to finally buy Heart of the Swarm and play it. Unlike WoL, I shall be playing it on the highest graphics settings *yeah!*
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Ixtellor » Fri May 31, 2013 7:40 pm UTC

Seems to me like Mutalisk is the MVP of zerg.

It forces the enemy to do so many things they don't want to do.

I plan on playing a bunch of games late tonight US central time if anyone wants to play.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Game_boy » Sat Jun 01, 2013 11:57 pm UTC

Diadem wrote:Tomorrow my new pc should arrive. Time to finally buy Heart of the Swarm and play it. Unlike WoL, I shall be playing it on the highest graphics settings *yeah!*


Did you get an SSD. I got one for my newest PC and honestly I never want to use a computer without one again. The only real quality-of-life improvement to a PC since Windows XP came out.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Derek » Sun Jun 02, 2013 2:02 am UTC

Ixtellor wrote:Question:
Best Zerg combo versus MMM or MMM + some tank support.

In WoL it was either muta/ling/bling or infestor/ling. Either way transitioning into infestor/BL/Ultra late game. I don't know how this changed in HotS, if at all.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby J the Ninja » Mon Jun 03, 2013 5:06 am UTC

I literally have a 12% win rate vs zerg right now (2-12). It seems every game I let lings in my base, get caught of guard by a roach counterattack, get flanked, etc. It's always "where did he get all those units and how did they get THERE???!!!". They always seem to flank me, get better concaves, etc. What I find unendingly frustrating about PvZ is how unforgiving it is. Miss a force field? Sim-city off by 1 hex? Forgot to have your zealot on hold position? Not watching your army for 5 seconds and the roaches showed up? HAHAHAHAHAHAHA YOU LOSE. Right like that. I feel like I can be doing fine, and then the game will just fall out from under me in a matter of seconds because of 1 little thing.

And it feels like it's never the same thing. It's not like I'm losing from a build weakness, or it doesn't feel like that at least. One game I get surprised by an attack and can't react fast enough, so I think "next game I'll work on map awareness". Oops, my wall is off, 25 lings in my base, gg. Ok, next zerg, I'll focus on my wall. Oops, you forgot you hotkeyed the MSC with your army, 1F doesn't cast FF, surrounded, gg. Ok, pay attention to hotkeys. Oops, you forgot to scout, you win 12 surprise mutalisks. Ok, work on scouting. OH SHIT WHERE DID ALL THOSE ROACHES COME FROM I FORGOT TO WORK ON MY MAP AWARENESS.
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