Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby You, sir, name? » Tue Apr 30, 2013 2:55 pm UTC

I don't get it.

While other people improve when they play starcraft, I seem to deteriorate. Every week I'm slightly worse than I was the week before, no matter how hard I focus in getting better.

Maybe I should focus on playing worse. Like try to get *really* supply blocked at least once every game. Try to keep my marines in front of my marauders. Make sure never to dodge out of a storm. Never engage a protoss army with pure marines unless their sentries have full energy.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Xenomortis » Tue Apr 30, 2013 3:44 pm UTC

How do you know you're getting worse? Are you regularly getting matched up against lower league opponents?
This is not necessarily an easy thing to verify; your performance is not going to be independent from the ability of your opponent.

Don't be too hard on yourself either.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Menacing Spike » Tue Apr 30, 2013 4:34 pm UTC

You, sir, name? wrote:Never engage a protoss army with pure marines unless their sentries have full energy.


And manually spread your fire among the zealots. I like it.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby You, sir, name? » Tue Apr 30, 2013 5:01 pm UTC

Xenomortis wrote:How do you know you're getting worse? Are you regularly getting matched up against lower league opponents?
This is not necessarily an easy thing to verify; your performance is not going to be independent from the ability of your opponent.

Don't be too hard on yourself either.


I'm playing objectively worse compared to a couple of weeks ago.

* APM: 20-60 points lower.
* Time supply blocked: From 20s ish on average to over a minute in a good game.
* Average unspent resources: From 400-ish to 1000+
* I take horrible engagements and miss favorable ones.
* Third expansion used to be operational at 10 minutes. Now it's like maybe up at 17 minutes if I remember to float it there.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Ixtellor » Tue Apr 30, 2013 5:56 pm UTC

Are you playing different types of games? 2v2 and 4v4 instead of 1v1?

I found that playing so much 4v4 made me a lot worse, because the play styles are so different and many things are beyond your control.

Before HoTs when I used to play a lot, I considered myself a platinum player 1v1 and diamond in team games, now I am solidly gold.


Side note: I read online that marine only can get you into platinum 1v1, is that true?

I kind of believe it, because so many people like to tech or expand in 1v1's that a 4 rax rush could catch a lot of them.

ALSO:
I read that Leenock did a 6 pool in a tourny, anyone got a youtube link?

I also saw part of a game where a guy cannon rushed a zerg fast expand in a tourney.

I didn't realize pro's did cheese.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Derek » Tue Apr 30, 2013 6:19 pm UTC

Ixtellor wrote:ALSO:
I read that Leenock did a 6 pool in a tourny, anyone got a youtube link?

I also saw part of a game where a guy cannon rushed a zerg fast expand in a tourney.

I didn't realize pro's did cheese.

This is actually quite common. Especially in long series (BO7+) where cheese can be used to get a break from the long, high intensity games.

The difference between masters cheese and bronze cheese is that masters players know what they're doing. They know why the cheese works, how to adapt it to the situation, and how to follow up or transition out if necessary.

Also, cannon rushing a zerg expansion isn't even cheese. It's a very natural way to harass zerg while forge fast expanding. The key is to recognize that it is only harassment, not cheese, so you shouldn't over commit. One or two pylons and two or three cannons are all you need to deny the natural while you get your expansion running.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby You, sir, name? » Tue Apr 30, 2013 6:50 pm UTC

Ixtellor wrote:Are you playing different types of games? 2v2 and 4v4 instead of 1v1?

I found that playing so much 4v4 made me a lot worse, because the play styles are so different and many things are beyond your control.

Before HoTs when I used to play a lot, I considered myself a platinum player 1v1 and diamond in team games, now I am solidly gold.


Nope. 1v1 and nothing but 1v1 for me.

Ixtellor wrote:Side note: I read online that marine only can get you into platinum 1v1, is that true? I kind of believe it, because so many people like to tech or expand in 1v1's that a 4 rax rush could catch a lot of them.


I'd give it a solid "probably." Sub-platinum players in general have really poor macro. Pure marines off a 3 base production with upgrades will roll almost anything off 1.5 base production without upgrades. With non-shitty macro, youc an easily be maxed at about 15 minutes, when your average opponent will barely have gotten above 120 supply. You can also get away with being really greedy, as most people have no idea how to punish it.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby mike-l » Tue Apr 30, 2013 10:11 pm UTC

You sir, name, you have improved unbelievably since you started playing. Don't worry too much about these temporary setbacks, this happens in anything and everything you do. Skill plateaus then increases, then plateaus, then increases, and so on, on top of daily smaller fluctuations. During a plateau those fluctuations can easily appear to be a regression. Just go watch some of your early replays and see how much you've improved.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby EvanED » Tue Apr 30, 2013 10:48 pm UTC

Ixtellor wrote:I didn't realize pro's did cheese.

Great old BW game (Light vs Tempest): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzPiDOh9430

"rax first against protoss is nothing but cheese"
Spoiler:
Also maybe the closest pro game I've ever seen.
"33 kills?! 33 kill dragoon!"

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Derek » Tue Apr 30, 2013 11:26 pm UTC

EvanED wrote:
Ixtellor wrote:I didn't realize pro's did cheese.

Great old BW game (Light vs Tempest): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzPiDOh9430

"rax first against protoss is nothing but cheese"
Spoiler:
Also maybe the closest pro game I've ever seen.
"33 kills?! 33 kill dragoon!"

That is a classic game. It's also the only time I've ever seen a shield battery in Brood Wars.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby You, sir, name? » Wed May 01, 2013 12:18 pm UTC

Woohoo! Demoted!

I guess I had it coming. Had a mean losing streak before the ladder reopened :-(
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Ixtellor » Wed May 01, 2013 4:10 pm UTC

I tried the marine only strategy last night. (I did make medivacs) All opponants were gold.
4 losses in a row. In every game I had a 1 or 2 base advantage.

1 Base all in Toss beat me. I could have won during a small window but didn't scout properly and spent too much on expanding.

1 Base colossi, into 2 base was a loss when 8 colossi showed up with a small contingant zealots and sentries.

Lost too a Terran that made tanks + MM

Lost to another Terran that did all marines + medivacs on 1 less base, but had better upgrades because I forgot to build my armory. Plus he attacked fairly early when I had spent another 700ish minerals on my 3rd base and he spent it on 14 more marines.(with 2/2 to my 1/1)


Ended the night on a 2v2 random win, where we traded bases but my teamate had BC's and they had roaches/hyrda + MM. I was Toss and made a LOT of colossi, then transfered to all blinkstalkers off of 10 gates that I rebuilt twice. (3 times total)
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Yakk » Wed May 01, 2013 8:10 pm UTC

I had a funny 3v3 game the other day. It lasted a fair but but the highest worker count was around 17-20 because of all of the widow mine and reaper cheese going both ways. Everyone either cut workers early to execute an early rush, or got hit and lost a pile of workers to it...

I really ruined the day of a protoss player who tried the WoL "use stalkers" response to my fast reapers: it really doesn't work.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby J the Ninja » Thu May 02, 2013 5:55 am UTC

I play my placement match, annndddd I'm demoted to plat.

Play another game, win, get promoted right back into diamond. wat.


(after that my losing streak resumed)
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Ixtellor » Thu May 02, 2013 1:30 pm UTC

I lost my placement match on purpose by leaving. So I can practice and get back to my old self.

Played a few games trying out strats stress free.

I lost one game I should have won to Swarm Host + corruptor + overseers. (I'm toss)

Spoiler:
I attacked on 2 bases to his 3, and easily crushed his ling/roach army with a few colossi and gate units. I moved to his 2nd and he had some swarm hosts ups, so I retreated and started making observers and took my 3rd and 4th base.

I attacked a HUGE pack of swarm hosts, and did a lot of damage but lost a lot of units.

I took a 5th base. I crank out like 4 more colossi + gate units and attack.
This is when I encounter the SH + Corruptor + overseer army.
He snipes all observers, then snipes all the colossi.

I build 4 quick stargates... but never had enough to overcome all his corruptors.
I was then frantically buildling colossi + void rays + stalkers (I totally underbuilt the number of gateways I really needed [had like 3 for a long time, then 8 towards the end])

(I stupidly spent the rest of the time defending instead of forcing him to defend. which is what really lost me the game, and was freaking out when my first 2 bases ran out of minerals)


Grand Question: How does a toss beat Swarm Host + corruptor + overseers.
(other than the obvious "don't let them get to that point")

Also, how many unit producing buildings should you have on 3, 4, 5+ bases?

At 5 bases, I had a stupid amount of minerals (6k) and NO gas.

Last point: I basically got overwhelmed at 5 bases and did a piss poor job of taking advantage of my huge supposed advantage. (Forgot to upgrade... CHECK!, didn't build enough gateways... CHECK!, Didn't force him to defend at multiple points... CHECK!)
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby broken_escalator » Thu May 02, 2013 1:38 pm UTC

How does zealot & Archon fair against that? Seems like HT could feedback overseers or storm the SHs, too.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Kag » Thu May 02, 2013 2:30 pm UTC

Ixtellor wrote:Grand Question: How does a toss beat Swarm Host + corruptor + overseers.


From the way you tell the story, I don't think this is the right question to be asking.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Nylonathatep » Thu May 02, 2013 8:43 pm UTC

Ixtellor wrote:Grand Question: How does a toss beat Swarm Host + corruptor + overseers.


You probably won't see swarm host till mid game... but the early signs zerg going swarm host is early gas and early hive.

You can snipe down low amount of swarm host by using stalkers. Swarm host takes a lot of time to build and need sufficient numbers to be effective. constantly engaging and trading would keep the swarm host number down.

Swarm host are slow... (Think of them as ground broodlords)... exploit their lack of mobility by counter attacking and forcing them back to defend. (Warp prism drops)

For an efficient unit composition of Swarm Host/Corruptor... it'll need a lot of gas... also once it dies it won't be rebuild that quickly. Do not be afraid to trade mineral units for gas heavy units.

On that note... if you see swarm host.. you probably won't see a lot of muta or infestors. Sadly Vipers works pretty well with Swarm Host.

Upgrades beats anything... your units are stronger and thus it allows you to trade unit for unit more effectively

The straight up unit counter to swarm host is High Templar since swarm host can't move when they burrow. A good psi-storm can also kill off a bunch of swarplings (especially considering how ppl rallying them to one point)

Mothership black hole, archon toilet will do very well against swarm host. Again.. they can't move... and you already have archon anyways.

The key to fighting Swarm Host is to reduce their numbers, and not engage the swarmpings directly if possible. Pull back and let the first wave of swarmling expire, and then rush in before the next wave spawns... flanking the swarm host's position would make it easier to take then down. Also since Swarm Host loves to camp outside of choke... ForceField works wondering holding Swarmplings defensively... since they can't shoot down the forcefield and

in WOL, if I remember correctly 1 Base Protoss = 4 gate, 3 gate + stargate/robo, or 3 gate + 1 upgrading forge. Not sure if that has been changed in HOTS.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Yakk » Thu May 02, 2013 8:52 pm UTC

Phoenix with range hard counters every zerg air.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby You, sir, name? » Sun May 05, 2013 4:25 pm UTC

I edit my posts a lot and sometimes the words wrong order words appear in sentences get messed up.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Yakk » Sun May 05, 2013 6:00 pm UTC

I have so much fun doing all-widow-mines, all-the-time, in 3v3 and 4v4.

I mean, it isn't all *that* effective, but it is so much fun.

Waddle waddle waddle, burrow.... booom!

Especially fun when doing placement matches, because you get into fights with gold and lower and you destroy their entire army and their entire probe line and every one of their buildings is still intact...

The 3v3 placement where one person went all-Templar, one all-widow, and the other all-phoenix, was hilarious when we realized we forgot to build a unit that could destroy structures. Templar player had to build zealots. It was sad.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby You, sir, name? » Sun May 05, 2013 6:03 pm UTC

Yakk wrote:I have so much fun doing all-widow-mines, all-the-time, in 3v3 and 4v4.

I mean, it isn't all *that* effective, but it is so much fun.

Waddle waddle waddle, burrow.... booom!

Especially fun when doing placement matches, because you get into fights with gold and lower and you destroy their entire army and their entire probe line and every one of their buildings is still intact...

The 3v3 placement where one person went all-Templar, one all-widow, and the other all-phoenix, was hilarious when we realized we forgot to build a unit that could destroy structures. Templar player had to build zealots. It was sad.


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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Ixtellor » Mon May 06, 2013 4:38 pm UTC

Recap: Lost placement on purpose, got in Silver league.

Played several games since then: 3 wins in a row put me back in gold.

I just consciously decided to play better and follow what I have learned on Day 9 and HuK, and got 3 gold wins in a row.

For whatever reason I have been making much better decisions.

Feels good to actually play better.

Enjoy.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby yurell » Tue May 07, 2013 3:46 am UTC

Finally! 100% Exploration achievements.
100% Heart of the Swarm achievements
100% Wings of Liberty achievements.
Screw custom/arcade achievements, means I now only need to get the multiplayer ones! I will make this game pay itself off* even if it kills me.

*I define a game as having 'paid itself off' if the cost over play-time is <50c/hr, which means I need to have c. 400 hrs of gameplay, since I had to buy two copies of WoL and I got the collectors' of HotS.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby You, sir, name? » Tue May 07, 2013 6:52 am UTC

I got the 1000 terran wins achievement the other day. Granted across all my accounts I'm at like 1600 wins, but it still felt good.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Ixtellor » Tue May 07, 2013 3:41 pm UTC

Gratz on 1000 Terran wins!


I finished the HoTs campaign, went through it all on Hard, only had to replay a few missions because I had my army out of position. (Raynor died to attack while I was clearing gates on other side of map). I know I finished with less than half the achievements, since I didn't look them up before starting missions.

I pretty much finished the game using just 1 unit type, never made roaches or infestors. Mutas got me through lots, then probably did the last 5-6 missions with just hydras, and an occassional ultralisk. (Some lings thrown in when out of gas)

On the very last mission Kerrigan was a boss and I found myself frequently fighting with just her.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Sytri » Fri May 10, 2013 7:56 am UTC

OK, I've got back in Starcraft after a long break, bought the expansion and now decided to go Zerg as my main. Is there a good website that can give you tips on gameplay? I seem to do OK if I cheese or am in a team and can spam one unit and work together. I'm silver 3V3 and bronze 1v1. I know its bad and I'd like to improve to get maybe gold 1v1 if I can.

There was a website I used to go to in WoL but I've forgotten what it's called and I've lost the bookmark.

Also, anyone who can give me some handy hints would be great.

I'll try to post up some replays when I get home so people can tear me to shreds.

:)
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Coin » Fri May 10, 2013 10:57 am UTC

Sytri wrote:OK, I've got back in Starcraft after a long break, bought the expansion and now decided to go Zerg as my main. Is there a good website that can give you tips on gameplay? I seem to do OK if I cheese or am in a team and can spam one unit and work together. I'm silver 3V3 and bronze 1v1. I know its bad and I'd like to improve to get maybe gold 1v1 if I can.

There was a website I used to go to in WoL but I've forgotten what it's called and I've lost the bookmark.

Also, anyone who can give me some handy hints would be great.

I'll try to post up some replays when I get home so people can tear me to shreds.

:)

The Liquipedia is pretty good. It's got build orders and let's you know more about individual units and how to combine them. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Main_Page
Otherwise there is also the option of watching some instructional videos by the well known Day9tv https://www.youtube.com/feed/UCaxar6TBM-94_ezoS00fLkA
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Ixtellor » Fri May 10, 2013 1:09 pm UTC

Sytri wrote:OK, I've got back in Starcraft after a long break, bought the expansion and now decided to go Zerg as my main. Is there a good website that can give you tips on gameplay? I seem to do OK if I cheese or am in a team and can spam one unit and work together. I'm silver 3V3 and bronze 1v1. I know its bad and I'd like to improve to get maybe gold 1v1 if I can.


I recently discovered Bronze League heros..... So addicted.

I bring it up:
1) You can actually see the mistakes that bronze players make.
2) It made me realize I envy that skill level. I began playing Starcraft like a year after it came out, and me and my friends would have an 8 person LAN set up and just play against each other. We were Horribad! But nothing will ever beat those memories.
As you slowly learn how to improve through trial and error.

I might go as far as saying, don't go research how to play like a pro. Enjoy the newness of the game.

Losing and not understanding why, is much better (emotionally)than losing and knowing exactly why.

Here are three very basic things that bronze players don't do.
Spoiler:
1) Keep building workers, challenge yourself to see how many you can make in a game then try to break that record.
2) SCOUT, SCOUT, SCOUT.
3) Use scouting information to make basic decisions.
example: Its 3 minutes into the game and my opponant (terran) has not built a barracks in his base = he proxied you (buily his barracks outside your base instead of in his, you're about to be rushed!)
He expanded = its safe for me to expand, or I can attack him why he is weak.
He is teching up = I can tech, or I can attack him why he is weak.
He is making Air Units = I need air defense (build more queens or drop some spores!)

Lastly, like was said : Watch Day 9, espeically his tutorial on hotkeys (google day 9 hotkeys, and instantly be better
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Derek » Fri May 10, 2013 6:24 pm UTC

Coin wrote:The Liquipedia is pretty good. It's got build orders and let's you know more about individual units and how to combine them. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Main_Page
Otherwise there is also the option of watching some instructional videos by the well known Day9tv https://www.youtube.com/feed/UCaxar6TBM-94_ezoS00fLkA

Last I checked Liquipedia's build orders were horribly out of date (like, late beta/early WoL). I haven't looked at it since HotS came out, but even if they added some HotS builds I would imagine that they will become outdated again. It seems to me that the wiki mainly settled on just covering the competitive events.

The best resource I've found is Day9's videos.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby You, sir, name? » Fri May 10, 2013 6:32 pm UTC

Ixtellor wrote:Losing and not understanding why, is much better (emotionally)than losing and knowing exactly why.


For me it's the other way around.

"I lost because ??? Protoss must be OP!" -> rage with the fury of a thousand idras.

"I lost because I forgot to build units while attacking" -> Huh, I'll better work on that.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Ixtellor » Fri May 10, 2013 7:13 pm UTC

You, sir, name? wrote:
Ixtellor wrote:Losing and not understanding why, is much better (emotionally)than losing and knowing exactly why.


For me it's the other way around.

"I lost because ??? Protoss must be OP!" -> rage with the fury of a thousand idras.

"I lost because I forgot to build units while attacking" -> Huh, I'll better work on that.


For me its "I lost because I didn't realize reapers can go up cliffs --- better plan for that in the future".

Versus

I lost because I am a freaking moron, and I just confirmed it.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby yurell » Sat May 11, 2013 12:39 am UTC

You, sir, name? wrote:"I lost because ??? Protoss must be OP!" -> rage with the fury of a thousand idras.


Speaking of Idra rage, he just got dropped from team EG for, from what I can gather, being a complete arse.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby You, sir, name? » Sun May 12, 2013 6:47 pm UTC

Image

Weirdest BM I've encountered so far.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Menacing Spike » Sun May 12, 2013 8:15 pm UTC

In Dota 1 I got accused of using a "gold hack" because I had much more gold than everyone else so clearly some foul play was afoot.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Game_boy » Mon May 13, 2013 8:31 am UTC

yurell wrote:
You, sir, name? wrote:"I lost because ??? Protoss must be OP!" -> rage with the fury of a thousand idras.


Speaking of Idra rage, he just got dropped from team EG for, from what I can gather, being a complete arse.


"it was never really an issue for us that Greg can be rude to his opponents in games [...] But, to us, there's a very big difference between a player being disrespectful to an opponent in a ladder match, and a player being disrespectful to the entire community of people who actually make his profession possible." - EG CEO

They were fine with him being an arse, just not to the people that pay the bills.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Xenomortis » Mon May 13, 2013 8:41 am UTC

From what I gathered from iNcontroL when he was talking about it on SOTG (which is when he found out):
They were fine with his in-game BM, mostly. Indeed, people (meaning the community in general) were largely fine with that.
But the content of some of his outbursts, which apparently contained things such as "I hate my fans/the game/the community/etc." and "I'm only doing this for money" (which I've not actually seen), is poison, and I think the higher-ups really didn't want that.
Image

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby You, sir, name? » Mon May 13, 2013 7:21 pm UTC

I love how TvZ has evolved in hots. That whole "if zerg gets to late game, you're pickled in guano"-thing just wasn't fun. Now it's a lot more dynamic. Kinda feels like TvT.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby J the Ninja » Tue May 14, 2013 2:23 pm UTC

You, sir, name? wrote:I love how TvZ has evolved in hots. That whole "if zerg gets to late game, you're pickled in guano"-thing just wasn't fun. Now it's a lot more dynamic. Kinda feels like TvT.


I absolutely adore watching TvZ. I loved it before, but the mines make it even more fun. Not sure I'd actually enjoy playing either side of it, but it's fun to watch.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby You, sir, name? » Thu May 16, 2013 6:56 pm UTC

This has to be the most bronze leauge I've played since I got diamond: "I can do bullshit too"

Highlights: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLEDTC-Ebcg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QaKedyMnFzo
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