Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Koa » Sat Feb 25, 2012 7:54 pm UTC

Coin wrote:Any chance of you uploading the game? It sounds awesome :)

It was in a peepmode so I'm not sure that anyone wants to go through a 2 hour replay to find a 12 minute game, or that I want to try to find which one it was.

I figure I should also speak to peepmode a little. It's a continuous 1v1 (potentially 2v2 and ffa) game, wherein it selects two players that want to play, allowing everyone else to observe. There's lots of trolls and smurfs and such, but I like the sense of community that I think SC2 is sorely lacking.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Levi » Sun Feb 26, 2012 4:04 pm UTC

I play it with friends. It's a ton of fun. I like it especially because they tend to use the same strategies in each game so I can watch what they do and then anticipate it when it's my turn (although sometimes it fails spectacularly, like when I tried to immortal rush against a guy using mostly roaches and he builds mutas).

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby You, sir, name? » Sun Feb 26, 2012 6:37 pm UTC

Was playing a TvZ. The other guy had a 20-ish muta ball. He decides to use them to take on two thors, several missile turrets and a ton of 3/3 marines, then he ggs because that was his entire army and he hadn't taken a third at the 25 minute mark. Don't know if he was off racing, or just had a bad day or something. But I sat in front of my screen like
Spoiler:
Image


I was fast expanding, I don't know if he had never seen terran fast expand before or something, because he kept trying to baneling bust my natural off two bases. Maybe he thought it had damaged my economy more than it did.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby EdgarJPublius » Tue Feb 28, 2012 3:37 am UTC

Just had a wild game. TvP About midgame after a couple of rough engagements, I know I can't win a strait up fight, so I pull off my army and let him take out one of my expands while I chew on his bases. This escalated into a full on base race so being Terran, I just lifted off my CC. He's forced to build a nexus to stay in the game so about 3/4s or so through the game, the state of affairs is Me with a CC, and him with a Nexus and a few units. I, rapidly rebuild, expand and move out just as he attacks my expansion with a mess of Void Rays vs. me with some bio, one Thor and a mess of Banshees. Turns into base race 2.0, but he had just started to expand again and I was (barely) able to take the game.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby J the Ninja » Tue Feb 28, 2012 6:50 am UTC

Just finished this one PvZ. Fairly normal for most of the game, I open phoenix like I usually do to get map control back after the FFE and do some scouting. Normally I tech to HTs after this so I'm covered against either roach/hydra or mutas. Then, I add in colossi later on, but this game, on a bit of a whim, I decided to use carriers instead of the colossi since I already built the fleet beacon for a mothership (BL/archon toilet, that kinda thing). Seeing my carriers, he starts making tons and tons of corrupters. So after a few close battles, I had just finished reloading for my big finale push with my shiny new mothership and +3 ground AND air weapons (I had skipped all the armor and shields). Seeing me come forward, he decides the mothership is a great threat. He sends in his corrupters to find it in the middle of the map and target fire it down. The mothership that had underneath it: 4 carriers, 4-5 archons, a few HTs, and a bunch of blinkstalkers under it, ALL CLOAKED AND WITH +3 ATTACK. He takes out the mothership, but loses all 22 corrupters in a matter of seconds without hitting a single other unit.

Needless to say, I watched that moment in the replay several times to see the values in all the different tabs plummet. :D
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby You, sir, name? » Tue Feb 28, 2012 9:16 pm UTC

An unsieged tank mass repaired by SCVs is ridiculously good against early marine pressure. I frequently have people try to go for a mass marine all in. I have like 4 marines, one hellion and a tank. They have all the marines 4 barracks can muster. I kill them all, losing like the hellion and a marine.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Yakk » Tue Feb 28, 2012 9:42 pm UTC

Marine vs Tank does 5 damage.
Tank has 160 HP. So 32 hits to kill a tank.
Tank does 15 damage 1.04 second delay against marine. 3 hits to kill a marine.

32 marine attacks to stop 0.32 of a marine dead per second, or 0.01 fewer marines dead/second per marine attack on the tank.

Marine vs Marine does 6 damage.
Marine has 45 hp. So 8 hits to kill a marine. Attack ~1.16 times a second.
8 marine attacks to stop 0.145 of a marine dead per second, or 0.0181 fewer marines dead/second per marine attack on the marine.

Attacking the siege tank is a bad idea, even without SCVs present.

The Hellion is obviously the #1 target, but the SCVs could easily make this a problem. (on the other hand, the hellion might be used to flank the attacking marines, and prevent them from being able to flee?)
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby You, sir, name? » Tue Feb 28, 2012 10:11 pm UTC

In this instance, you need harvesters to hold it off, whether using them for repairing or attacking. It's typically a 500 army vs a 300-ish army.

Repairing the hellion doesn't really work very well. Hellions go down faster, and the SCVs have a much harder time keeping up if you need to move them (which you do if you want to use them effectively). Siege tanks are far better at tanking damage than hellions, for reasons you listed in your post.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby J the Ninja » Sun Mar 04, 2012 7:20 am UTC

Been losing to plats all day. Then this game happened:

Sky Terran.SC2Replay.zip
(70.38 KiB) Downloaded 64 times


Sky Terran vs Sky Toss


I'm pretty proud of myself for having the game sense to go stargate immediately after seeing 2-port banshee, then start expanding like crazy. Instead of just trying to defend with stalkers like I used to.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Koa » Sun Mar 04, 2012 12:38 pm UTC

I'm getting eerily good at mass queens. Apparently I can beat diamond level protoss and plat terran consistently. I'm kind of tempted to tank my ladder account so that I can do it seriously in ladder and see how far I can get. I'm just not sure what to do about zvz.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby EdgarJPublius » Tue Mar 06, 2012 6:11 am UTC

I thought I was doing alright as terran in 1v1, but apparently not good enough since I got demoted.

I was winning about 50% of my games, but now I'm mostly playing against bronzies and win basically every game.

On the plus side, nothing quite beats that moment when your opponent realizes you have just sent a wave of SCVs and other miscellaneous units into their base, not as move of last ditch desperation, but to make room in your army for more +3/+3 battlecruisers

Or, when a 2 base turtling Terran finally pokes out after half an hour, right into a wall of planetary fortresses.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Diadem » Tue Mar 06, 2012 10:34 am UTC

I started playing again after being away for months. And man it's hard. I got slapped into gold so hard my head spun. I play terran, and one TvT I did a 2-rax into fast expand build. I arrived at his base only to have my entire force slaughtered, and a few seconds later he moved into my base with cloaked banshees. How the hell does he get enough forces to hold off a 2-rax attack, and cloaked banshees. It just confuses me. I don't mind losing so much, but getting owned that hard hurts.

It's nice though to see that my regular 2v2 partner in the past has progressed to grandmaster. He said he always wanted to be pro. He might make it.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Yakk » Tue Mar 06, 2012 3:28 pm UTC

5 second delay on rax construction, which slowed down your push. You spent lots of resources on the command center and SCVs for the fast expand. You where fighting up hill against a defensive position.

5-10 extra SCVs + Command Center = 650-900 minerals, plus a second rax for 1050 minerals you spent that they didn't have to for their strategy.

Factory: 150+100, Starport: 150+100, Tech lab: 25/25, Banshee cloak: 200/200 = 525/425
+2 banshees (300/200) = 825/625. That is more expensive than your build -- but as the defender, they can probably make do with less units built at a given time than you have (due to high ground and movement time).

The other player uses the factory to produce hellions (more efficient against bio than more bio, and we need a factory anyhow) so we don't waste the 150/100, and builds a bunker (we are on the defending side, might as well exploit it). Maybe better SCV use for a 100 minerals or so, and immediate mule use. Double gas ASAP probably, with a scout making sure you aren't moving out (building a bunker if you do).

But that is just a theory. In practice, check the replay!
One of the painful things about our time is that those who feel certainty are stupid, and those with any imagination and understanding are filled with doubt and indecision - BR

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Koa » Wed Mar 07, 2012 2:42 pm UTC

So I found out that my mmr had reset on my other account, and decided I'd use the opportunity to do the queen strategy I was talking about. I've played about 5 games with it and am in gold league and still climbing. I'll be sure to upload some good games in the future, but for now here's the basic idea of the build in action:
Koa vs Raedium(T) mass queens.rar
(48.85 KiB) Downloaded 69 times


I also did it in ZvZ and while I think I can survive on two bases I'm not really sure how to end the game. It's going to be difficult, but I'll see if I can't make it work.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Spambot5546 » Thu Mar 08, 2012 4:58 am UTC

You know that annoying thing protoss players do where they put down a pylon to block the hatchery? Interesting counter. I can't imagine it becoming particularly widespread, but it was damn cool nonetheless.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Yakk » Thu Mar 08, 2012 6:06 am UTC

That was hilarious.
One of the painful things about our time is that those who feel certainty are stupid, and those with any imagination and understanding are filled with doubt and indecision - BR

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Jesse » Thu Mar 08, 2012 3:21 pm UTC

Catching up with Day9 and turns out he loves xkcd! Not too surprising, but it's always nice when my interests cross over.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Diadem » Thu Mar 08, 2012 4:46 pm UTC

It's Day9. He's a huge nerd. I'm not surprised half of the things he mentions are things I like as well. Though I don't share his love for anime.
It's one of those irregular verbs, isn't it? I have an independent mind, you are an eccentric, he is round the twist
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Spambot5546 » Thu Mar 08, 2012 5:05 pm UTC

His rant about 1-to-1 and onto relationships (I think it was in an early newbie tuesday) made me giggle pretty hard.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Diadem » Thu Mar 08, 2012 5:30 pm UTC

That's daily #381. The funday monday episode about the worst partner of all time. He goes on to say:
Day9 wrote:If you draw a curve of her pleasure in bed with me, she gets asymptotically close to climax and right when she's like "I'm epsilon there!, I'm epsilon there!", that's when I climax and you see that it breaks off like a step function, because at that point sex is no longer continuous.

Awesome joke.
Last edited by Diadem on Thu Mar 08, 2012 5:31 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Will » Thu Mar 08, 2012 5:31 pm UTC

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Game_boy » Fri Mar 09, 2012 6:08 pm UTC

Yakk wrote:That was hilarious.


Yes, but commentary was so bad.

"He's going for a spawning pool! Zerglings will be made out of this hatchery!"

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Day[9] math thing was great, I'm taking analysis at the moment.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby You, sir, name? » Sat Mar 10, 2012 2:52 pm UTC

I'm so bad at stopping to build SCVs. I'm always like "damn, I'm maxed... but where's my army?!" and then I check the reply and I have like 130 SCVs.

I think I'm going to start rallying my third and fourth into my enemy's main. That way I can use my wasted SCVs for psyching my enemy. It'll be like economic chinese water torture. It'll drive my enemy insane wondering why I keep sending a steady stream of SCVs at him.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Coin » Sat Mar 10, 2012 6:00 pm UTC

You, sir, name? wrote:I'm so bad at stopping to build SCVs. I'm always like "damn, I'm maxed... but where's my army?!" and then I check the reply and I have like 130 SCVs.

I think I'm going to start rallying my third and fourth into my enemy's main. That way I can use my wasted SCVs for psyching my enemy. It'll be like economic chinese water torture. It'll drive my enemy insane wondering why I keep sending a steady stream of SCVs at him.


Maybe put together a macro changing your key commands halfway through so that you produce marines instead? *Is helpful*
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby You, sir, name? » Sat Mar 10, 2012 8:11 pm UTC

fffuuuu.png


D:

Was a mech vs mech game, by the way. Which is probably the most entertaining matchup I know. None of that marine tank stalemate bullshit terran used to be about. Just ram huge huge balls of mech into each other and see what comes loose.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Spambot5546 » Wed Mar 14, 2012 3:44 am UTC

Some redditors found pictures of WhitRa shooting some type of firearm. Then this happened. I approve.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Vaniver » Wed Mar 14, 2012 4:31 am UTC

Spambot5546 wrote:You know that annoying thing protoss players do where they put down a pylon to block the hatchery? Interesting counter. I can't imagine it becoming particularly widespread, but it was damn cool nonetheless.
Masterful play, but that commentator. "FUBARed beyond all recognition!"
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby phlip » Wed Mar 14, 2012 6:00 am UTC

Yeah, I stopped following HD a while back... It's like he managed to get a hang of the idea that you want to avoid dead air, and thus talk a bunch, but never quite got the hang of what to say during dead periods... so he tends to repeat himself, state the obvious, and repeat himself a lot.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Loadstone » Wed Mar 14, 2012 3:42 pm UTC

phlip wrote:Yeah, I stopped following HD a while back... It's like he managed to get a hang of the idea that you want to avoid dead air, and thus talk a bunch, but never quite got the hang of what to say during dead periods... so he tends to repeat himself, state the obvious, and repeat himself a lot.

Made me chuckle.

I'm sure he'd be fine at co-casting; I dunno if he's done much but he's one of the few casters I've checked out who can point out obvious stuff without sounding like he's talking at a bunch of idiots. With another caster to help stave off the dead spots, I think he'd be pretty entertaining.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby You, sir, name? » Wed Mar 14, 2012 9:27 pm UTC

Yay! Made it to quarter finals in this week's Broze-Silver-Gold SCV Rush
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby J the Ninja » Thu Mar 15, 2012 7:26 am UTC

Spambot5546 wrote:Some redditors found pictures of WhitRa shooting some type of firearm. Then this happened. I approve.



The following day, this happened.
Shishichi wrote:Applies a sexward force to counter the sexpression effect that Forward Advection can apply to fluid density, particularly along sextainer boundaries. In this way, the sextribute attempts to conserve the overall fluid volume ensuring no density loss.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Koa » Fri Mar 16, 2012 8:36 pm UTC

Breadth of Gameplay in SC2 An extensive article on explaining a fundamental problem in SC2.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Adacore » Sun Mar 18, 2012 1:02 am UTC

Koa wrote:Breadth of Gameplay in SC2 An extensive article on explaining a fundamental problem in SC2.

From non-StarCraft experience with gaming communities moving on to sequels, probably part of the reason people think SC2 doesn't have the same 'spark' as BW is mostly just nostalgia, plus the fact that they had been playing BW for so long, so anything different from BW to SC2 would be perceived by most people as 'bad'.

I've never played either, but as a spectator, I find SC2 more interesting than BW. BW games I've seen (especially terran games) just always seem to be so static, compared to the SC2 games I've watched. Granted, this doesn't speak for which is better/more fun to play, and is not a comment on the fundamental point about resource collection in that article, but I feel like older games are frequently romanticised when, in reality, they were objectively no better (and probably actually slightly worse) than their newer equivalents.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Koa » Sun Mar 18, 2012 4:17 am UTC

That's likely, but when I analyze the games mechanically, I find BW to be more interesting. Why? I'm not really sure. I think most people agree with me, but answering the question of why is incredibly difficult, if not impossible. That hasn't stopped some people from trying though, if I remember right he linked to a few of them in the article.

I'd be more interested in discussing spectator vs player ideals. As you say, BW is more static. I assume that's because more things are predetermined. In SC2, a third base can and often will die. In BW, as long as the player is careful, it's often the case that it can be defended from any attack. They can take a risk and take it earlier (greedy/cutting corners) at the cost of potentially losing it to a certain attack, and the same is true in SC2, but there's considerably less certainty to anything in SC2. That lack of certainty is probably why there will never be a SC2 bonjwa. You can attribute it to the metagame not being there yet. That's what people did a year ago, and it's definitely gotten better since then, but I'm not sure that that trend will continue any further.

Players losing to random things that they haven't (and possibly couldn't) anticipate is a large bane of players. Idra is probably the most outspoken about it, but I guarantee you that every professional player feels it to some degree. Does that uncertainty make it more interesting for spectators? Surely. Is it worth potentially never having a Flash? I don't know.


Here's some games that I've played on the 6 mineral field map. I got to play a few games with the creator of the article. I found T to be underpowered with the 1 high yield gas, which I told him about.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby BlackSails » Sun Mar 18, 2012 4:53 am UTC

I think people forget that it took starcraft a LONG TIME to reach the state where it was a balanced, professional game.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Koa » Sun Mar 18, 2012 5:12 am UTC

That argument ignores the state of the internet and professional gaming (or gaming in general) back in 1998. SC2 has had a massive head start due to the frameworks surrounding it that didn't hardly exist 14 years ago.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Spambot5546 » Sun Mar 18, 2012 5:18 am UTC

According to wikipedia "Starting in about 2002, pro-gamers started to become organized into teams...". That's four years after Brood War. SC2 has been out for just shy of two years now, but unlike Brood War it doesn't have the excuse of being one of the first games to be balanced for professional play.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Diadem » Sun Mar 18, 2012 1:06 pm UTC

Starcraft II was designed from the very start with professional gaming in mind. Starcraft I wasn't. So yeah, Starcraft II should be doing better, or at least equal to, Starcraft I when it comes to basic mechanics. Perfect balance is another issue, of course.

But a game being designed for professional gaming doesn't just mean having a very good gameplay. It means it has be be fun to watch as well. And Starcraft II wins out on Starcraft I precisely because it's slightly more chaotic. It's fun to watch crazy things happen. It's fun to watch sudden reversals of fortune. And it's still a highly skill based game, so no worries there. Pro gamers who are complaining about this are missing the big picture. Sure, they may occasionally have a frustrating loss, but they are also making 10x as much money because of it. Do they really want to change that?

Besides, I don't see this lack of depth. I see more different strategies in SC2 than in SC1. Where is this lack of depth?
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Game_boy
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Game_boy » Sun Mar 18, 2012 1:12 pm UTC

Diadem wrote:Sure, they may occasionally have a frustrating loss, but they are also making 10x as much money because of it. Do they really want to change that?


BW progamers: sometimes $100k+ salaries
SC2 progamers: mostly no salaries, they get food and board (i.e. bunk beds in a room with 3 others).
The Reaper wrote:Evolution is a really really really long run-on sentence.

mike-l
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby mike-l » Sun Mar 18, 2012 3:43 pm UTC

Very few BW players made that much though, and SC2 salaries are starting up as more and more sponsors are picking up SC2 teams.

And the prize money in SC2, GSL more than doubles OSL+MSL and is more frequent, and BW doesn't even exist as a professional game outside of South Korea, while SC2 is completely international.
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