Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Faithful » Fri Nov 04, 2011 2:44 pm UTC

NeoSteranko wrote:Hey guys, umm. Random sub-topic. How do YOU harrass?

(this question goes out to all terrans, zergs and protosses)


Zerg have it easy.

Muta Harass. 5-7 can disrupt an undefended early base. Later on 15+ do some serious damage.

Ling run by's: 20-30 lines can destroy a mineral line in minimal amount of time with upgrades

Infestor harass: Make sure you get burrow. You don't want to lose these guys during Harassment. Infested Terrans to have them drag all their works away and when they line up...pop out and Fungal them.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Bakemaster » Fri Nov 04, 2011 3:38 pm UTC

NeoSteranko wrote:Hey guys, umm. Random sub-topic. How do YOU harrass?

(this question goes out to all terrans, zergs and protosses)

I don't always banshee harass, but when I do, I forget to research cloak.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby J the Ninja » Fri Nov 04, 2011 4:08 pm UTC

It's also cute to watch the gold terrans I play who rely on scan for late games DTs...

Oh me yarm! A DT AT MY THIRD! Quick, scan and PF will kill it!
Oh me yarm! A DT is in my natural! Scan again and send the army!!
Oh me yarm! A DT in my main! Good thing I wasn't keeping up on my mules!
Oh me yarm! There's another DT in my third! SCAN...NO SCANS! Oh fuck, oh god, build missile turrets! NO THE SCV BUILDING MY TURRET GOT SNIPED!




protip: The DTs are ALWAYS coming. "Not DT rushing" only means they're coming after 15-25 minutes instead of 7 minutes. Build your turrets/spore crawlers.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby EdgarJPublius » Fri Nov 04, 2011 5:46 pm UTC

spore crawlers are irrelevant, the solution is always more banelings.

Actually, I typically prefer overseers against early DTs or cloaked Banshees.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Swivelguy » Fri Nov 04, 2011 6:07 pm UTC

I do hellion runbys on zerg expansions, and do 8-marine drops in all matchups. I've never been much of a fan of banshee harass, although I do use them in my main force in TvP.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Bakemaster » Fri Nov 04, 2011 6:41 pm UTC

Hmm. If a cloaked, undetected unit is next to a baneling when it pops, does the unit take damage?
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby broken_escalator » Fri Nov 04, 2011 6:44 pm UTC

Based on that Zeratul micro mission from the storyline I'll say yes.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Game_boy » Fri Nov 04, 2011 6:56 pm UTC

Bakemaster wrote:Hmm. If a cloaked, undetected unit is next to a baneling when it pops, does the unit take damage?


Yes. ForGG was using that mechanic to kill creep tumours by shooting his own hellion with another hellion and splashing it.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Yakk » Fri Nov 04, 2011 7:56 pm UTC

Bakemaster wrote:Hmm. If a cloaked, undetected unit is next to a baneling when it pops, does the unit take damage?

Yep. Thus DTs are the single worst unit in the game to kill banelings with.

Similarly, leaving a handful of banelings patroling a mineral line will sploosh enemy DTs who move shift attack, and eventually get the move shift hold ones as well as the DTs choose to attack these dangerous banelings walking by...
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Bakemaster » Sat Nov 05, 2011 9:21 pm UTC

UC Davis vs. UC Berkeley CSL match is live now at http://www.teamliquid.net/video/streams/gensulitor

So far it's 1-1 and we're going into the 2v2 match in a few minutes.

For background, both teams are undefeated so far in the CSL and Berkeley is #1 in the CSL by ELO at the moment.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby |Erasmus| » Sat Nov 05, 2011 10:14 pm UTC

Game_boy wrote:
Bakemaster wrote:Hmm. If a cloaked, undetected unit is next to a baneling when it pops, does the unit take damage?


Yes. ForGG was using that mechanic to kill creep tumours by shooting his own hellion with another hellion and splashing it.

Every good terran has done that, I'm sure. I've even done it enough times.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby SirBryghtside » Sun Nov 06, 2011 3:10 pm UTC

Decided to play Campaign on Hard mode to try and up my skills. I think, after just the third mission, it's actually gotten me to hotkey!

This game is so easy compared to the first...
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby BlackSails » Sun Nov 06, 2011 3:28 pm UTC

SirBryghtside wrote:Decided to play Campaign on Hard mode to try and up my skills. I think, after just the third mission, it's actually gotten me to hotkey!

This game is so easy compared to the first...


Im not really sure the single player campaign is an appropriate way to judge a multiplayer game...

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby SirBryghtside » Sun Nov 06, 2011 4:39 pm UTC

I just meant that the campaign is easier than the first. And I've had this game since release, watched my brother do campaign, but my own playing experience has almost exclusively been sucking at multiplayer.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Spambot5546 » Sun Nov 06, 2011 4:52 pm UTC

The campaign is worth playing, in that it's fun and has an interesting story, but it won't make you better at the multiplayer. For that you'll want to start looking up training maps and working on your macro and multitasking.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby SirBryghtside » Sun Nov 06, 2011 5:33 pm UTC

I really feel this is what I needed, though. My main problem with MP is keeping track of everything at once, and having to fly away from supernovas while building new units, structures and microing my way through an enemy base... I really don't see how that isn't improving that side of things.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Spambot5546 » Sun Nov 06, 2011 5:36 pm UTC

Any game of starcraft can be micro practice, the campaign is just one of the worst for it.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby NeoSteranko » Sun Nov 06, 2011 6:32 pm UTC

Spambot5546 wrote:Any game of starcraft can be micro practice, the campaign is just one of the worst for it.


Ahahha true. It's all just so situational the way the put it

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby phlip » Mon Nov 07, 2011 12:06 am UTC

The main problem with going from the campaign to the multiplayer is that it's a completely different dynamic... in the campaign, typically you start with a very small base, while the AI has a large sprawling complex. However the AI doesn't grow and expand much, or build much of an army except for the occasional attacking waves, or replacing losses. So the right move is to turtle up, build up a huge army, and then go on the attack. And if it takes you a while to build up that army, well, that doesn't matter too much. While in the multiplayer, you start on even footing, and both of you are building up and expanding your bases, at the same time. Which means that attacks are viable much earlier, and if you wait too long to attack you'll lose. If you turtle up longer and build a larger army before pushing out, it only means your opponent will also have built a stronger army and will be harder to beat.
Similarly, things like harassment, containment, and cheese like proxies and rushes, don't really make any sense in the campaign, but are important parts of the MP game (even if you don't do them yourself, you have to be ready for them from your opponent).

Which isn't to say the campaign is bad in any way, it's still very fun. It's just a very different game to the multiplayer.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Yakk » Mon Nov 07, 2011 12:25 am UTC

What I don't like about the campaign is the feeling that if I "dare" move out, I'm screwing myself. The enemy will have a tonne of forces that it only uses if you move out...

On some maps, this makes sense. On others, far less so. But it is almost universally true, outside of the maps where you don't have a base.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Reassuring Curve » Mon Nov 07, 2011 3:42 pm UTC

The campain usually has mechanisms to get you to move the fuck out.
Supernova has a giant wall of fire, sometimes you have a time limit (smash and grab, the trains...), have to escort shit (colonists), or the enemy is just throwing unlimited forces at you (gates of hell), while your ressources will wear thin (unless using a lot of hive mind emulators).
Those constraints become more apparent and pressing on Brutal.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Game_boy » Mon Nov 07, 2011 5:26 pm UTC

The campaign is bad at teaching multiplayer.

Blizz should have a multiplayer tutorial video. Get Day[9] to cast a representative gold-plat league TvT 2 base vs 2 base with no obvious mistakes (just inefficiency) and point out players build workers, then buildings in a certain order, then make units, then expand, then move out to attack and someone wins a fight.

Blizz do have an idea of how MP is meant to be played but they never communicate this explicitly in material new players see.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Xeio » Mon Nov 07, 2011 6:00 pm UTC

Yakk wrote:What I don't like about the campaign is the feeling that if I "dare" move out, I'm screwing myself. The enemy will have a tonne of forces that it only uses if you move out...

On some maps, this makes sense. On others, far less so. But it is almost universally true, outside of the maps where you don't have a base.
To add to what ReassuringCurve said, I'm pretty sure there are no missions that punish you for moving out. The only possible exceptions I can think of are missions where your objective is to explicitly defend (achievements notwithstanding). But that's only punishing in the "leaving your heavily defended position is risky" way.

It's pretty obvious that blizzard designed a lot of the missions with the idea that a 200/200 A-Move army can decimate anything, so they added timers or other events to force you to play outside of your comfort zone, not the other way around.

Game_boy wrote:Blizz do have an idea of how MP is meant to be played but they never communicate this explicitly in material new players see.
They do have the challenges to do that actually. It's hard to gauge how effective they can be though, given it can take hours to teach someone to play starcraft multiplayer, and they don't really have that kind of time unless someone is already making the effort to learn.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby EdgarJPublius » Fri Nov 11, 2011 9:22 pm UTC

What's the best way to practice laddering another race without trashing my mmr/division rank or having to buy another license?
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Yakk » Fri Nov 11, 2011 9:29 pm UTC

Team up with another person. Do 2v2 matches only with that person only with the other race.

Your team ranking will be isolated from the rest of your ranking, as far as I know.

Yes, this won't be the same as a 1v1 game. But it will give you practice with that race until you don't completely suck. :)
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Game_boy » Sat Nov 12, 2011 4:10 am UTC

It only takes about 10 left games per league you want to go down, and likewise you can return to your original league within ~20 games when you stop (when I tried it; plat -> bronze as zerg -> plat. I think that's still the best way.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Spambot5546 » Sun Nov 13, 2011 1:50 pm UTC

This was a treat to watch. If I was any good, Check is the kind of Zerg I'd want to be, and if I was still able to play regularly I might try stealing that build.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Avin » Mon Nov 14, 2011 2:54 am UTC

Spambot5546 wrote:This was a treat to watch. If I was any good, Check is the kind of Zerg I'd want to be, and if I was still able to play regularly I might try stealing that build.


Maybe I've watched too much GSL, but as soon as I saw the map, the protoss forge fast expand, and the early lair I knew exactly what was happening. I wanted to yell at the caster, why aren't you paying attention to the three drones that are heading up the map? FYI Nestea did this build much better against anypro back in May: http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors3/vod/65228

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Spambot5546 » Mon Nov 14, 2011 3:22 am UTC

I liked the nydus lings into mutas follow up better, but I'm not going to argue with results.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Game_boy » Tue Nov 15, 2011 12:27 am UTC



Artosis was on fire. Top 5 casted games of Starcraft ever.

Nothing beats Nestea vs sCfOu game 5 though. I've memorised the last 4 minutes of casting.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Game_boy » Sat Nov 19, 2011 12:06 am UTC

Best MLG.

Best. F-ing. MLG.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Jesse » Sat Nov 19, 2011 12:13 am UTC

Game_boy wrote:Best MLG.

Best. F-ing. MLG.


Has only just started, so I don't agree just yet (Especially considering MKP last time), but yeah. The GI is awesome so far.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Game_boy » Sat Nov 19, 2011 12:24 am UTC

Jesse wrote:
Game_boy wrote:Best MLG.

Best. F-ing. MLG.


Has only just started, so I don't agree just yet (Especially considering MKP last time), but yeah. The GI is awesome so far.


Yeah it's kind of a reactionary comment. IdravNestea and NaniwavMVP are both great series.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby NeoSteranko » Sat Nov 19, 2011 2:08 pm UTC

So guys, what do you think of, and how do YOU use, Banelings?

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Reassuring Curve » Sat Nov 19, 2011 2:23 pm UTC

NeoSteranko wrote:So guys, what do you think of, and how do YOU use, Banelings?


Mines, drops, flanking. Never ever attack move with them.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Jesse » Sat Nov 19, 2011 6:23 pm UTC

Reassuring Curve wrote:
NeoSteranko wrote:So guys, what do you think of, and how do YOU use, Banelings?


Mines, drops, flanking. Never ever attack move with them.


Unless you want to be a dick and blow up my PF.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Game_boy » Sat Nov 19, 2011 6:44 pm UTC

Jesse wrote:
Reassuring Curve wrote:
NeoSteranko wrote:So guys, what do you think of, and how do YOU use, Banelings?


Mines, drops, flanking. Never ever attack move with them.


Unless you want to be a dick and blow up my PF.


Or against Thors. Maybe that only works if you're Nestea.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby J the Ninja » Sun Nov 20, 2011 4:25 am UTC

Sentry drop > ramp forcefield

The blue-flame hellion of Providence?


Personally, I've never tried it, always doubted my gold-league micro could pull it off. Although now I'm kinda tempted to give it a shot on the ladder in the next couple of days.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby sunami » Sun Nov 20, 2011 4:58 am UTC

Even if you just get 2 consecutive forcefields properly, that's 30 seconds uncontested in their main. Give it a go, get a third one for 45 seconds!
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Jesse » Sun Nov 20, 2011 9:13 am UTC

J the Ninja wrote:Sentry drop > ramp forcefield

The blue-flame hellion of Providence?


Personally, I've never tried it, always doubted my gold-league micro could pull it off. Although now I'm kinda tempted to give it a shot on the ladder in the next couple of days.


Yeah, I was casting Grubby/Stephano the other day, and Grubby kept it up for a good few minutes, using the WP to warp in more sentries and zealots. It was crazy effective. Think he got over 30 drone kills by the end of it.


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