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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 8:28 pm UTC
by J the Ninja
They're not cost-effective vs chargelots by themselves. At least not without a lot more micro than the void-chargelot player needs to do(target firing voids, kiting, blinking back when the Zs charge), and if you are around the same skill level and playing the same race, you're in trouble if you need to micro like crazy while the other player can just keep a-moving towards you. I'm thinking sentries plus a few archons to help chew the zealots up would work. I've had such good luck in PvP with this build, I'm just going to keep doing it until I get people who can stop it. Then I'll let you all know what beats it. :P

Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 9:01 pm UTC
by Yakk
4 gate stalkers + citadel
vs
2 gate zealots + 2 stargate voids + citadel

Both get warpgate tech (even).

At charge+10 voids, you have 200+300+10*150 = 2000 gas invested plus 2700 minerals.
That is enough gas for 37 stalkers + blink = 4775 minerals invested.
2025 excess minerals for the void player, or 20 zealots.

20 charge zealots and 10 void rays VS 37 blink stalkers.

17 stalker hits to kill a zealot (or 24.48 stalker seconds)
11 zealot hits to kill a stalker, or 13.2 zealot attack seconds.
18 hits to kill a Void Ray (or 25.92 stalker seconds)
8 VR hits to break shields, 9 to kill stalker = 17 VR hits to kill a stalker (uncharged), or 10.2 VR attack seconds
5 VR hits to break shields, 6 to kill stalker = 11 VR hits to kill stalker (charged), or 6.6 VR attack seconds.

Zealot target priority: 17/13.2 = 1.29
VR (no charge) target priority: 18/10.2 = 1.77
VR (charged) target priority: 18/6.6 = 2.73

With 37 stalkers you kill ~1.5 VR/second.
With 37 stalkers you kill ~1.5 Zealots/second.
With 10 VR you kill ~1.0 stalker/second.
With 20 zealots you kill ~1.5 stalker/second.

At a choke, the zealots are going to be seriously annoyed. Lets assume the zealots are fully engaged 2 seconds after the VR and Stalkers are. (This also makes up for the zealots not being able to focus-fire as well).

At time 2.0 seconds:
7 VR + 20 zealots vs 35 stalkers
Stalker death rate: 1.5 / second + 0.7 / second
VR death rate: 1.5 / second * 35/37
3.0 seconds: 32.8 stalkers vs 5.6 VR + 20 zealots
4.0 seconds: 30.7 stalkers vs 4.3 VR + 20 zealots
5.0 seconds: 28.7 stalkers vs 3.0 VR + 20 zealots
6.0 seconds: 26.9 stalkers vs 1.8 VR + 20 zealots
7.0 seconds: 25.2 stalkers vs 0.7 VR + 20 zealots
8.0 seconds: 23.6 stalkers vs 0 VR + 20 zealots (VR charge up a short fraction of a second before it dies)
9.0 seconds: 22.1 stalkers vs 19.1 zealots
10.0 seconds: 20.6 stalkers vs 18.2 zealots

Stalkers blink away. This many zealots will defeat this many stalkers without micro.

Basically, the VR "force" the stalkers to engage the zealots.

Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 9:53 pm UTC
by psion
Yakk wrote:The real issue here is that protoss lacks good anti-air options: Stalkers suck (damage output of a non-stim marine for 2.5 times the minerals, and a converted cost (3 gas:1 mineral) of 5.5x the cost of a marine), and even toughness wise they don't beat marines cost-for-cost (at converted cost, they have 72% of the HP+Shield soak). Their only saving grace is shield-regen and armor (and blink, which pails next to stim in utility).

The real issue here is that marines are stupidly good.

Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 10:39 pm UTC
by Game_boy
Yakk wrote:4 gate stalkers + citadel
vs
2 gate zealots + 2 stargate voids + citadel

Both get warpgate tech (even).


4 gate stalkers + citadel


citadel

Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 10:49 pm UTC
by psion
Game_boy wrote:
Yakk wrote:4 gate stalkers + citadel
vs
2 gate zealots + 2 stargate voids + citadel

Both get warpgate tech (even).


4 gate stalkers + citadel


citadel

I looked at this for almost a minute, thinking "Yeah? And?"

Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 1:24 am UTC
by Xeio
Can has leg enhancements + charge? 8)

Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 2:52 am UTC
by Yakk
Ya, I was "what the is that the person I don't even", then i was "oh the thing with the other thing isn't it" then i was "it was the thing with the emotion".

Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 3:28 am UTC
by Bakemaster
I second that emotion.

Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 5:38 am UTC
by |Erasmus|
Doing all that maths is fine... but it assumes that you get to do everything in a straight up fight with pure blinkstalkers. Either you make a few zealots to help tank chargelots (charge upgrade is less useful in this battle) while you pick off voids or you abuse terrain by blinking up and down cliffs while firing on zealots that can't hit the stalkers, etc.

I don't even play a lot of protoss, but blink stalkers with just a small number of zealots to tank other zealots are just incredibly good in that matchup. Can chargelot/voids deal with any of the newer phoenix styles of PvP too?

Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 6:24 am UTC
by J the Ninja
|Erasmus| wrote:Doing all that maths is fine... but it assumes that you get to do everything in a straight up fight with pure blinkstalkers. Either you make a few zealots to help tank chargelots (charge upgrade is less useful in this battle) while you pick off voids or you abuse terrain by blinking up and down cliffs while firing on zealots that can't hit the stalkers, etc.

I don't even play a lot of protoss, but blink stalkers with just a small number of zealots to tank other zealots are just incredibly good in that matchup. Can chargelot/voids deal with any of the newer phoenix styles of PvP too?


The way I've been doing it is as a transition out of the phoenix PvP opening. Chrono out 3 phoenix as warp gate is researching/finishing(stargate goes down after the stalker and warp gate research is started, like normal) , then go harass the other player. Pick off immortals, workers, sentries, etc. Get them to stay in their base while you expand and get charge and void rays. You can continue using the phoenix to scout their tech and expansions through out the game.

Side note: blink timings can be hard to hold with this build. I've lost to it once, and almost lost to it several more times.

Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 9:32 pm UTC
by Game_boy
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmes ... _id=280168

So several BW teams worth of players are playing SC2 in preparation for its addition to Proleague next season.

I think 90% of current GSL players are about to be wiped out. Can't wait to see what form the eventual unification of GSL and OSL/Proleague into a single scene will take.

Also if you like BW this is a strong pointer towards its decline, along with MSL and four BW teams shutting down.

Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Posted: Sat Oct 29, 2011 7:56 am UTC
by Jesse
People keep saying it'll wipe out the current SC2 pros, forgetting that former BW stars like NaDa and BoxeR haven't been exactly wiping the floor with everyone else. It's a different game, in the same way you wouldn't expect Jaedong to be able to smash everyone at Warcraft 3, I don't see why they expect them to absolutely dominate Starcraft 2 straight off the bat. I imagine they'd be decent at it, and with time could definitely hit the highest levels, but I'm not seeing tham all as instant bonjwas.

Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Posted: Sat Oct 29, 2011 12:54 pm UTC
by Game_boy
Jesse wrote:People keep saying it'll wipe out the current SC2 pros, forgetting that former BW stars like NaDa and BoxeR haven't been exactly wiping the floor with everyone else. It's a different game, in the same way you wouldn't expect Jaedong to be able to smash everyone at Warcraft 3, I don't see why they expect them to absolutely dominate Starcraft 2 straight off the bat. I imagine they'd be decent at it, and with time could definitely hit the highest levels, but I'm not seeing tham all as instant bonjwas.


I don't expect specific people to dominate (their skills and motivation might not line up with SC2) but as a collective, current SC1 players have greater RTS skill because there is far more money in it for those who are successful so the only people that have switched are ones that feel they wouldn't make it in top-tier BW today (including Nada/Boxer/July as well as Nestea/MVP).

Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Posted: Sat Oct 29, 2011 7:38 pm UTC
by Jesse
While I agree with them having the potential to do so, and I'm certainly not bashing their skill, I still see players like MVP, Nestea and so on giving them a run for their money. I'm irked more by the corner of TL that is of the opinion that every BW player would magically become an SC2 bonjwa overnight.

Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Posted: Sat Oct 29, 2011 10:49 pm UTC
by Game_boy
Agreed.

I'm more concerned about whether this will kill the GSL, if some sort of OS2L starts up under Kespa control. GOMTV really care about bringing Korean SC2 to foreigners but conventionally OGN and Kespa have not.

Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Posted: Sat Oct 29, 2011 11:37 pm UTC
by Jesse
AFAIK, GomTV have the sole broadcasting rights for SC2 in Korea, thanks to Blizzard, so they'd have to work out a deal between the two.

Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2011 12:29 am UTC
by J the Ninja
And they can't just go around Blizz and hope to sort it out in court later, because there's no LAN. Blizz can just IP ban the venue, and that's the end of that "unauthorized" tourney. Some people on reddit and team liquid were suspecting this may have been the real reason for no LAN to begin with.

Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2011 10:05 am UTC
by Game_boy
J the Ninja wrote:And they can't just go around Blizz and hope to sort it out in court later, because there's no LAN.


There is a hack in existence. I'm sure it could be repurposed if there was millions of dollars on the line.

This is why technology-based control doesn't work.

Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2011 1:40 pm UTC
by NeoSteranko
Hey, guys u think it'd be possible to start a xkcd clan? just a gaming clan full of n00bs, math theorists and fans of the BGH?

Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2011 6:59 pm UTC
by J the Ninja
NeoSteranko wrote:Hey, guys u think it'd be possible to start a xkcd clan? just a gaming clan full of n00bs, math theorists and fans of the BGH?


Well, we already have the "xkcd" chat channel on the NA server. Not sure what we'd do with a clan that we don't already do with that channel. I mean, it's not like we have the skill pool to get sponsors for an xkcd team house or something.



For those who don't know: join "xkcd" on the NA server while you're playing to meet up and chat with your fellow forumites. Sometimes we play ladder matches or obs games, or FFAs/teams monobattles if we have enough people. Someone (I think it was psion) actually built a couple of special FFA maps, that allow you to surrender and get vision of the survivors by typing -gg.



Speakings of FFAs, Day9 is currently airing subscriber FFAs. Where he chooses the worst FFA maps ever. The upcoming game is going to be on megaton, the 4v4 map with a shared main.

Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 12:04 am UTC
by NeoSteranko
J the Ninja wrote:
NeoSteranko wrote:Hey, guys u think it'd be possible to start a xkcd clan? just a gaming clan full of n00bs, math theorists and fans of the BGH?


Well, we already have the "xkcd" chat channel on the NA server. Not sure what we'd do with a clan that we don't already do with that channel. I mean, it's not like we have the skill pool to get sponsors for an xkcd team house or something.



For those who don't know: join "xkcd" on the NA server while you're playing to meet up and chat with your fellow forumites. Sometimes we play ladder matches or obs games, or FFAs/teams monobattles if we have enough people. Someone (I think it was psion) actually built a couple of special FFA maps, that allow you to surrender and get vision of the survivors by typing -gg.



Speakings of FFAs, Day9 is currently airing subscriber FFAs. Where he chooses the worst FFA maps ever. The upcoming game is going to be on megaton, the 4v4 map with a shared main.



oh sorry. didnt realize that since well, im noob. uhh thanks.

Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 12:20 am UTC
by |Erasmus|
J the Ninja wrote:Speakings of FFAs, Day9 is currently airing subscriber FFAs. Where he chooses the worst FFA maps ever. The upcoming game is going to be on megaton, the 4v4 map with a shared main.

T is completely fucked then... not much you can do about a 6 pool or cannon rush from that close. But i think the best (by which i mean hilarious) z strategy is some kind of 10 pool straight into mass queen and creep spread all over the shared main and put spines everywhere.

And there's a lot more to being part of some kind of clan than going pro and getting sponsorships. Go check out sc2sea.com and the clan leagues there for low level players that are a huge amount of fun.

Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 2:15 am UTC
by EdgarJPublius
|Erasmus| wrote:
J the Ninja wrote:Speakings of FFAs, Day9 is currently airing subscriber FFAs. Where he chooses the worst FFA maps ever. The upcoming game is going to be on megaton, the 4v4 map with a shared main.

T is completely fucked then... not much you can do about a 6 pool or cannon rush from that close. But i think the best (by which i mean hilarious) z strategy is some kind of 10 pool straight into mass queen and creep spread all over the shared main and put spines everywhere.

And there's a lot more to being part of some kind of clan than going pro and getting sponsorships. Go check out sc2sea.com and the clan leagues there for low level players that are a huge amount of fun.


Planetary Fortress?

Or just lift off and go elsewhere.

Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 9:38 pm UTC
by Game_boy
http://i.imgur.com/OPhm8.jpg

BW players verified to be playing SC2 (by social security name and number) and in high Masters despite joining within the last month or so.

Or possibly random Korean letters because I can't read it.

Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 2:34 pm UTC
by omgryebread
Game_boy wrote:
J the Ninja wrote:And they can't just go around Blizz and hope to sort it out in court later, because there's no LAN.


There is a hack in existence. I'm sure it could be repurposed if there was millions of dollars on the line.

This is why technology-based control doesn't work.
Using a built-in LAN feature in an unauthorized tournament is a whole different legal kettle of fish from using an unauthorized LAN hack in an unauthorized tournament. Blizzard's case would be greatly strengthened.

So technology-based control doesn't fix everything, but it was never intended to. Blizzard quite comfortably controls what Starcraft 2 gets played, with a combination of technology and the legal system.

Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 9:48 pm UTC
by Game_boy
omgryebread wrote:Using a built-in LAN feature in an unauthorized tournament is a whole different legal kettle of fish from using an unauthorized LAN hack in an unauthorized tournament. Blizzard's case would be greatly strengthened.


LAN hacks are legal everywhere except where the DMCA applies which is just the US. The ToS is hardly a valid contract, all Blizzard can do is block you from official servers not prevent you from playing the game you bought in any way.

Profiting from broadcasting SC2 content without a license is another matter for the courts but nothing wrong with the hack.

Not so sure Blizz would win the broadcasting fight in court either; football matches in the EU were ruled legal to broadcast without a license a few weeks ago.

Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2011 4:37 pm UTC
by Spambot5546
This

Is the greatest game of StarCraft 2 to ever get casted.

Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2011 4:54 pm UTC
by Goldstein
I don't get it.

Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2011 6:10 pm UTC
by EdgarJPublius
That's probably for the best.

I was waiting for a joke about crabs though...


Aren't you only supposed to get cross positions on Shattered Temple and Metalopolis in S4? Why is it every game I've played on these maps has been close positions then?

Seriously, I've played several games on these maps since the start of the new season, and every single one has been close positions.

Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2011 7:03 pm UTC
by Yakk
Goldstein wrote:I don't get it.

Micheal Hunt is a famous Warcraft 1 player from the days of LAN parties. They are making references to her tactics back when the crossbowman rush was a strong move against the orc hordes.

Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2011 11:38 pm UTC
by |Erasmus|
EdgarJPublius wrote:That's probably for the best.

I was waiting for a joke about crabs though...


Aren't you only supposed to get cross positions on Shattered Temple and Metalopolis in S4? Why is it every game I've played on these maps has been close positions then?

Seriously, I've played several games on these maps since the start of the new season, and every single one has been close positions.


They disabled close ground positions, not close air positions. :/

Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 12:49 am UTC
by EdgarJPublius
That's silly.

Also, shouldn't I be playing cross positions ~50% of the time then? Instead of 0%?

Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 5:17 am UTC
by Swivelguy
Come back with a statistically significant observation.

I personally hate cross pos on metalopolis because it has a large impassable center creating 2 equal-length attack paths. A lot of accidental base trades happen because opposing armies pass eachother in the night.

Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 6:27 am UTC
by NeoSteranko
Swivelguy wrote:Come back with a statistically significant observation.

I personally hate cross pos on metalopolis because it has a large impassable center creating 2 equal-length attack paths. A lot of accidental base trades happen because opposing armies pass eachother in the night.



Yes, that's why harassment is so potent with this map.

Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 6:34 am UTC
by NeoSteranko
Hey guys, umm. Random sub-topic. How do YOU harrass?

(this question goes out to all terrans, zergs and protosses)

Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 6:53 am UTC
by phlip
A random map-related thought... a little while ago Day[9] did a subscriber FFA battle thing, where a bunch of his fans played some games, and he tried to dick with it as much as possible, for entertainment value. Anyway, at one point the game was such that it was an FFA, but alliances were unlocked, so you could join up into teams. But allied victory wasn't allowed, so you'd have to unally and beat your ex-partner in order to win... he referred to it at one point as Hunger-Games-style.

Which had me thinking... could you make a more Hunger-Games-themed map? In the books, for those unfamiliar, there's an fighting arena... right in the centre is a cornucopia, with piles of supplies, food, weaponry, and the like. With the best stuff right in the middle. Everyone starts in a ring around the cornucopia... the stronger and braver contestants run in and try to fight over the supplies... many of them dying in the process. The others ignore the temptation and run off into the rest of the arena, and try to make do with what scant things they can find out there.

So I'm picturing something where there's just a big mountain of minerals in the middle of the map. Except go further, and, say, have a single rich vespene geyser right in the centre, with a handful of gold minerals around that, and then just a heap of regular minerals around that. And then, in a ring around this whole collection of resources, all 8 starting locations, evenly spaced. And, let's say, 8 regular vespene geysers, each at the midpoint of two neighbouring start locations. Meanwhile, in the rest of the map, there's, say, a dozen or so regular resource nodes, but they're limited in scale... say, 5 mineral patches and 1 gas, like the pocket third in Terminus.
So when the game starts, you have a choice - try to establish your position in the centre, and get a huge economic lead, but be in a vulnerable position and be a huge target. Or run off to one of these smaller nodes and try to survive off the limited resources.

I'm thinking that there'd need to be some mechanism to immediately relocate to another base at the start of the game... otherwise Terran would have an immediate advantage with lift-off. Maybe you can salvage your base for the first minute of the game, and get 100% of the value back (and you also don't lose for having no buildings if you do so), and then you can rebuild elsewhere. Which just adds to the incentive not to do so, because now you have to wait for the new base to finish building. Maybe that's too harsh. Still thinking about this one.

And then maybe, for version 2, throw in some scripted events like those in the Games... if there aren't any battles, or unit deaths, or something for a while, then have some sort of cataclysm happen to try to drive the players together...

Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 7:06 am UTC
by J the Ninja
NeoSteranko wrote:Hey guys, umm. Random sub-topic. How do YOU harrass?

(this question goes out to all terrans, zergs and protosses)


Chargelot drops. The best part is when they try to defend it by a-moving in their workers instead of running their workers out and sending in units. 3-4 Zs can take on an entire mineral line and win. (workers do not benefit from attack upgrades). DTs are always fun too, especially when you rally them on different bases and stager them so they all hit at once.

Storm or Archon drops are badass, but I rarely do them. Too risky, and only available super-late in the game.

Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 12:32 pm UTC
by Yakk
NeoSteranko wrote:Hey guys, umm. Random sub-topic. How do YOU harrass?

(this question goes out to all terrans, zergs and protosses)

Phoenix+Zealot play, the Phoenixes are all about harrass, while the Zealots sometimes get moved to an expansion mineral line and chow down.

DT move (as noted, ideally staggered, in a fight). Leaving DTs at possible expansions (they kill the worker who sets up the base in 1 swing, then leave not much evidence of what happened).

I've done a blink-stalker mineral line hit once or twice, but that requires very specific geometry (an approach path that can be blinked in, but isn't guarded, enough time for blink to refresh, being able to hit the miniral line from that position without much warning, then being able to blink away to safety relatively reliably).

The "early probe hiding in base, and if not noticed it makes a pylon and lets you warp an attack force into their base later" is often worth the risk of investment (if I don't just go cannon on their ass if they miss a probe scout).

Most other protoss units are far too slow to harass.

Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 1:17 pm UTC
by broken_escalator
Yakk wrote:DT move (as noted, ideally staggered, in a fight). Leaving DTs at possible expansions (they kill the worker who sets up the base in 1 swing, then leave not much evidence of what happened).

I always get so damn impatient with my DT harass, but leaving them at open expansions is a good idea I'll try to start doing.

Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 2:13 pm UTC
by Yakk
broken_escalator wrote:
Yakk wrote:DT move (as noted, ideally staggered, in a fight). Leaving DTs at possible expansions (they kill the worker who sets up the base in 1 swing, then leave not much evidence of what happened).
I always get so damn impatient with my DT harass, but leaving them at open expansions is a good idea I'll try to start doing.
They also guard watchtowers reasonably well. If you can look at the minimap, you can see the incoming force that looks "large enough" to carry an observer with it and flee. Single enemy units just die.