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Re: [SAFESPACE] Woman Thread - #sharkweek on irc.foonetic.net

Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 8:38 pm UTC
by blue_eyedspacemonkey
I do Biochemistry and have lectures with geneticists, microbiologists, biologists, and it's a fairly even split. According the a report in 2008, the split of students was 52.3% female, 47.67% male. I have more male lecturers than female, most of the female staff do zoology/ecology/stuff that doesn't come under biochemistry.

Re: [SAFESPACE] Woman Thread - #sharkweek on irc.foonetic.net

Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 9:05 pm UTC
by Osha
Ooh yeah, the whole being a woman in CS thing, boatloads of fun!
I was presenting as a guy up 'till this semester and was quite, didn't talk much, and never had to ask for help.
This semester I'm still quiet and aloof.
This has the benefit of not having to deal with stupid people and not bringing unwanted attention to myself, but has the detriment of feeling lonely sometimes.
I actually haven't needed to ask questions so far (I didn't get into CS because it was interesting, I got into it because I was dang good at it <.<), but that'll probably change with some of these upper level classes. Which is good!
That's if they don't kick me out first, I am kinda failing rather stupendously this semester :o

Re: [SAFESPACE] Woman Thread - #sharkweek on irc.foonetic.net

Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 9:30 pm UTC
by Teapot
My course last year was 87.5% male and 12.5% female. This year it's 60% female and 40% male.

Of course last year there were only 8 people and this year there are only 5 so...

Re: [SAFESPACE] Woman Thread - #sharkweek on irc.foonetic.net

Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 11:05 pm UTC
by GraphiteGirl
The split has seemed fairly even between males and females in both my law and arts units; I think even the numbers of lecturers in both areas are close to equal. In my tute group for Crim Law, though, there happened to be far more guys, and it was pretty reassuring to see how well they handled topics like sexual assault during tutorials. It's possible that I just have really low standards these days, but even so, I was proud of the group for completely bypassing all the stupid arguments and focusing on the law. I'm probably very lucky in that my interests mostly lie in humanities directions, so I've never encountered anything in the way of patronising treatment in classes. And, going to an all-girls high school, we were never compared to boys in any way with regards to the science units, although our chemistry and maths teachers were pretty pleased by how far we managed to outperform our brother school in the final exams.

Re: [SAFESPACE] Woman Thread - #sharkweek on irc.foonetic.net

Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 11:55 pm UTC
by eliana
yeah, in my school I'll be sitting in a class of 40 + kids, taught by a man, and every single other person in the class is a boy. I feel like a different species. Also, everyone else is completely lost and I'm not. And then I'm in the cyber security club, where no. females. ever. tread.
@ Osha: Yeah, I presented as a guy up until somewhat recently as well. Actually, registering for this forum under my given name, eliana, was really weird for me. And it was easy to be invisible as a guy, but as a girl I feel so pressured to excel just to prove everyone wrong. Which I do, I always get the highest or second highest score in the class on exams. But I do it to say f u to the guys.
The other sciences seem to be more evenly distributed, but for some reason CS is the last to catch up. I wonder why.

Re: [SAFESPACE] Woman Thread - #sharkweek on irc.foonetic.net

Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 12:46 am UTC
by Isotope_238
My mom was a software engineer for a decade before I was born, and she told me that the stigma against women in CS is relatively recent. In my personal experience, I'm in my third semester of computer science at the local college. Last fall, we had 4:1 guys-to-girls. None of us girls have dropped out, but three or four guys have. I haven't noticed any discrimination. The department teachers are male, and so is my partner for the final project. Variable mileage, maybe?

Re: [SAFESPACE] Woman Thread - #sharkweek on irc.foonetic.net

Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 12:50 am UTC
by Osha
Oh wow, only woman in a class of 40 people?
That's uh..like 2.5% o.o
My CS classes tend to have around 10% women at least (which is still abysmal but 4x better) I can't imagine going into a room with 40 guys... wow

Re: [SAFESPACE] Woman Thread - #sharkweek on irc.foonetic.net

Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 1:14 am UTC
by Cammy
I went to a trade school and was one of the few women in the whole school. I know the different species feeling. I received more unwelcome attention than people actually talking to me like I was a sentient human being. A few odd guys treated me normally. I'm not trying to be racist at all, but it was usually the brown guys who treated me like a person.

Re: [SAFESPACE] Woman Thread - #sharkweek on irc.foonetic.net

Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 2:30 am UTC
by podbaydoor
My kickass aunt has PhD in physics from Cornell. Back in her day (late '70s and early '80s) she was one of 2 girls in the whole program, until the other girl dropped out. She said that's where she acquired the habit of doing twice as well as everyone else, because it was the only way she could survive.

Re: [SAFESPACE] Woman Thread - #sharkweek on irc.foonetic.net

Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 4:18 am UTC
by eliana
podbaydoor wrote:My kickass aunt has PhD in physics from Cornell. Back in her day (late '70s and early '80s) she was one of 2 girls in the whole program, until the other girl dropped out. She said that's where she acquired the habit of doing twice as well as everyone else, because it was the only way she could survive.


That's totally kickass. I always wonder what would happen if I wasn't there, you know? I always get this creeping feeling that I'm stopping strange male rituals from happening. In the case of my discrete math class, that's probably not true, but perhaps your aunt averted some very strange things from happening. Any gender to the exclusion of other gets unhealthy, and it is so awesome your aunt dealt with that and made it out rockin'.

Re: [SAFESPACE] Woman Thread - #sharkweek on irc.foonetic.net

Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 5:06 am UTC
by mochafairy
There's problems I've discovered with some guys, though, and it comes it 2 flavors: they get too comfortable or they swing the other direction. One leads to incredibly awkward conversations and actions, and the other with hostile "conversations" and actions.

I do not want to talk about which celebrity I think has the best penis/vagina with my peers. Way too awkward. I do not want to be glomped by many of my peers (the ones that can get away with that are really good friends, not just peers). Sometimes, guys, being touchy-feely with a girl you are not fucking dating is a really fucking stupid idea.

[Trigger warning]On the opposite end, I don't want to hear about how you want to rape all the girls in the class into submission. I don't want you threatening me, assaulting me, blackmailing me...and acting like I'm a bitch because I got pissed about it. I don't want you spreading rumors...


*goes off to hide in a corner and vent more*

Re: [SAFESPACE] Woman Thread - #sharkweek on irc.foonetic.net

Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 6:34 am UTC
by Kithplana
I'm one of the few CS ladies in the school, and for the most part I'm cool with the guys and they're cool with me. I've felt the need to stand up for myself once before, and that was a non-CS matter where a joke went rather too far. (I've been informed that news of that made it around the school, though I never heard a word of it; it's a small school and I'm a Quiet One.) I think part of the reason for the mutual cool is that from day one I've been the person who will know and be able to explain or fix what's going on, especially when the instructors can't.

Re: [SAFESPACE] Woman Thread - #sharkweek on irc.foonetic.net

Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 7:39 am UTC
by poxic
I can't offer much Voice of Experience, unfortunately. Every time I've faced derision or "just a joke" cutting me down as a woman, I've felt humiliated and powerless. I did learn to shoot back, though usually nothing particularly clever.

The only thing I can promise is that boys get less insulting (mostly*) as they get older. Young men don't hassle me now that my hair has streaks of grey. Older men have either learned to be respectful or to shut the hell up. I still run into men who think I exist for their enjoyment, but they're far less frequent and usually random strangers on the street/bus/subway. Coworkers don't pull shit on me, whether it's the business environment, hair, or Voice of Experience, I can't say. When I take classes now, it's continuing ed things that are mostly made of people over 25. A fair amount of the bullshit ends after 25 or 30.


* There was one episode within the last month. A friend-acquaintance-buddy-sort-of-guy, a fellow bandmate I usually only see as part of the band, made a disparaging "joke" about my breasts one night. I felt the wind knocked out of me briefly, then fired back a lame "so are yours". It was about another second or two before several others started giving him hell, which made me feel awkward but a bit better. Then one of my real buddies in the group came to me later to apologise and to tell me that he'd given the fellow a piece of his mind. I found out later that the fellow's brother (another bandmate) had also given him hell privately. A few days later, I got an email from the fellow full of abject apology.

I knew he'd been having a hard night -- he's trying to kick alcohol, but a lot of us were drinking around him so he drank too and was disturbed by it. He'd chewed out his backup singer a bit, yelled at the drummer... it wasn't a good night for him. Given that and his grovelling apology, I told him all was forgiven. Just go give a dollar (he's kinda broke) to a women's charity of some sort and we'd call it even. He wrote back that he'd do that, and was glad that we were cool.

One minorly kinda-shitty story with a not-so-shitty ending. Yay my life. :P

Re: [SAFESPACE] Woman Thread - #sharkweek on irc.foonetic.net

Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 8:20 am UTC
by MadParrot
I did IT at uni - and managed to rarely to rarely notice any major skew of male:female ratios, and definatly no attitude problems. Was with mostly female friends. An artificial intelligence subject was mosly male maybe 20:6, and I do remember looking up from a cram session outside an exam room and noticing I was the only girl. Granted I'm not the most observant of souls - I tended to notice how all the science classes were full of girls...

The major annoyance for me was the 'girls-in-IT-support-group' (OK, that's not really the name of the organisation) emails that were forever getting sent around - I don't need any special help for being female, I am not in the least bit oppressed, don't suggest I should be because you'll only make it so. I guess they meant well but it wasn't till 3rd year or something that they had an opt out - I wonder if the guys got them? I guess for some people it's genuinely helpful (when there's genuine bad attitude). I feel if they want to go around to a school and show the girls something cool to make them study IT - well the boys should get to see it too! They don't go around schools enticing boys into childcare? I always fill in surveys with my whinge though. :)

The competitive-because-I-am-female thing? Yes, at school. I used to do fairly well in the IT subject in year 9 - and from then on I had to keep beatign people :/ Some of the guys would come by good-naturedly after results came out to compare notes hehehe. Got over it at uni because I didn't do as well (high school IPT is mostly pointless memorisation - 7 layer OSI model anyone?), lol :)

(woo first post in the woman thread makes me slightly hypocritical but at least it lets fellas in so its ok?)

Re: [SAFESPACE] Woman Thread - #sharkweek on irc.foonetic.net

Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 1:47 pm UTC
by Sungura
MadParrot wrote:The major annoyance for me was the 'girls-in-IT-support-group' (OK, that's not really the name of the organisation) emails that were forever getting sent around - I don't need any special help for being female, I am not in the least bit oppressed, don't suggest I should be because you'll only make it so.
This. I feel sorry for those of you who are oppressed, because I know it happens, however, when I get emails like, "come join the all-female support group for biotech!" I want to vomit. Especially since I can see the email list (apparently bcc is not known to these people) and I know that most of them are female (the others I don't know who they are). It sickens me because I think it is almost trying to create a problem when there isn't one! In my department, 2-3 people are admitted every year to the Ph.D. program. The year above me was one male, one female. My year was 2 females, 1 male. The year that just started is 2 females 1 male. In our classes, (and I am in with the med students, so we are talking huge 100+ classes) I counted one day, it is about 50/50 (and I counted on the first day so everyone was there and people weren't skipping to watch the stream from home later). I honestly don't feel oppressed, I realize I quite well may be lucky in that (it seems that CS is a big issue, but the science and maths don't seem to be as much from what folks are saying) but I don't like it when I'm told I should be feeling oppressed. With my field and all my experiences within my field, the only people who have a tougher time are those who don't do well, plain and simple.

Re: [SAFESPACE] Woman Thread - #sharkweek on irc.foonetic.net

Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 6:04 pm UTC
by eliana
MadParrot wrote:The major annoyance for me was the 'girls-in-IT-support-group' (OK, that's not really the name of the organisation) emails that were forever getting sent around - I don't need any special help for being female, I am not in the least bit oppressed, don't suggest I should be because you'll only make it so. I guess they meant well but it wasn't till 3rd year or something that they had an opt out - I wonder if the guys got them? I guess for some people it's genuinely helpful (when there's genuine bad attitude). I feel if they want to go around to a school and show the girls something cool to make them study IT - well the boys should get to see it too! They don't go around schools enticing boys into childcare? I always fill in surveys with my whinge though. :)


Totally! I hate the 'Oh, you poor women, you are sooooooooo brave for being IT, it is so gosh darn strong of you to be here instead of over the oven where you belong. Good Job, girl!' attitude. It pisses me off. And that is precisely the attitude that makes me want to kick these people in the balls until they cry. But, at the same time, I do think stay-at-home dads get the same bs from their stay-at-home moms, pretty frequently, the whole 'you are amazing for raising your offspring!' sont of thing.

You know why it pisses me off so much? Because it is the opposite of what it is pretending to be. it is pretending to encourage the idea of women being in tech, but the whole tone is this ancient, obtuse glorification-objectification of women. It's like, OK, Curie? Totally kick ass that she could be in tech. But in 2009, it's way to late to be celebrating that that can happen; it should be happening more, it's dumb that it isn't, and instead of forming support groups we should be kicking ass and taking names. Do not congratulate me for doing what is natural; get your peers and children to stop being such role-conforming 1950's era morality infused piles of shit, and to follow the career that brings the the most joy. Support groups for women in IT are like all support groups for women. When you have a support group for cancer victims, likely you are ring to fight cancer, support groups for alchoholics try to fight alcoholism. Support groups for women are trying to fight what? XX chromosomes? All men?

What should really be happening is powerful decentralized advocacy for ending the bullshit. I think it is a fight, and I think it is very important that more females participate in IT for the same reason FOSS is important-more development, be it via more human-power or less duplication of labor leads to faster tech advances leads to higher overall quality of life with no increase in pain, which inasmuch as one can say there is an objective 'good,' that's probably it. But I agree that both boys and girls should be given access the the 'technology is rad' lectures and whatnot; it's just that the untapped engineering potential amongst all women is likely higher that it is amongst all men, because between a man and a women with equal IT potential, the man is more likely to go into IT. My answer is fight, and change external conditions, and never be self-congratulatory, or get complacent for more than ten minutes.

I hate squishy gender equality based analyses. Take that shit for granted, and move forward. I take gender equality for granted as a premise for everything else. The genders are equal, there are just these socially irresponsible trolls of both genders, marketing protein shakes, airbrushing models, catcalling women, and making fun of little Sally for making a Lego Turing machine. Support groups give them so much power. They're just trolls, and I think we all know what happens when you let trolls direct your discourse.

Re: [SAFESPACE] Woman Thread - #sharkweek on irc.foonetic.net

Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 6:43 pm UTC
by Flightless_bird
Equality should be just that equal. I'm a woman and proud of it but I really hate when some "angry" feminists (and I say "angry" feminists because it's the only people I've heard this from) say that men for some reason are worth less than women. Why? We are all humans and in some areas women biologically can't reach the same level as men and the other way around. Does this give us the right to push each other down?

Re: [SAFESPACE] Woman Thread - #sharkweek on irc.foonetic.net

Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 6:51 pm UTC
by Jessica
Uh, no one here is saying that we should keep men down.

Sorry, but I need to say my piece. It's ok for you to not need support. That's cool. that doesn't mean that people who can benefit from it are weak. It doesn't mean that there isn't a need for it. It doesn't mean that they're creating more problems then they are solving.

I remember the women in Math group at UW. It was a place for the few women to get together and hang out. Like the woman thread. It's not a pity party, or a us vs them. It's just a group of people who have something in common - being in math and being a woman.

If your university has these programs, it's not evil or bad. they're just groups for people who might want some help.


Can we cut the bashing women space?

Re: [SAFESPACE] Woman Thread - #sharkweek on irc.foonetic.net

Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 7:03 pm UTC
by PictureSarah
Yeah, what Jessica said. If you have never been to a support group, then I don't feel you have much of a leg to stand on in saying what said support group does or does not do.

I suggest that the people in this thread actually listen to what the feminists in this thread say (sometimes we're even angry!). Hint: It doesn't include bashing on men so much as bashing on the sexist structure of society.

Re: [SAFESPACE] Woman Thread - #sharkweek on irc.foonetic.net

Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 7:41 pm UTC
by Enuja
It is truly and deeply ironic to see woman's group bashing in the [SAFESPACE] Woman Thread. I, myself, question a bit what purpose a thread for women has, especially as I personally dislike the social concept of gender, but, hey, I like the women thread, so it makes sense for me to support it and post in it. A support group for women in IT or biotech or whatever, on the other hand, appears clearly useful to me. When I was in biology, people did say to me "oh, yeah, you're bad at this and good at that because you're a women", and it drove me crazy. It would have been nice to have been in a women in biology group where I could talk out the specific problems I had and share strategies. A support group for women in a particular field doesn't exist to attract women to that field: it exists to help women already in the field. Also, the presence of a support group shouldn't damage anyone who doesn't want to be in the group: simply delete the email if you aren't interested.

Wishing away inequality doesn't make it go away. It is much more effective to figure out what the inequalities are and to meet them head on than to claim that any acknowledgment of the status quo is automatically counterproductive.

When "men" and "women" dress the same, talk about the same conversational topics at work, are expected to be equally nurturing, wear the same amount of makeup, take the same amount of time to get ready for work in the morning, and do the same percentage of housework at home in addition to doing their out-of-home jobs, then we can talk about whether it is possible that support groups have become counterproductive.

Re: [SAFESPACE] Woman Thread - #sharkweek on irc.foonetic.net

Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 8:00 pm UTC
by Delalyra
Thank you Jess, Sarah, and Enuja. Wanted to say something but wasn't sure how to say it. >.> I know if I was one of few women in my field, I'd like to have a group to hang out in, just like because I'm one of few LGBTQ people at my college, I like having a group of similar people to hang out with.

Re: [SAFESPACE] Woman Thread - #sharkweek on irc.foonetic.net

Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 8:39 pm UTC
by Sungura
I don't think anyone is against the ideas of women's groups. At least, I'm not. I'm just saying, I hate being told how I should feel, when I don't feel that way. And I deserve as much rights to my feelings as those who have the opposite feelings have the right to their feelings.

(that was wordy, but you get my point, I think)

Re: [SAFESPACE] Woman Thread - #sharkweek on irc.foonetic.net

Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 8:49 pm UTC
by Rinsaikeru
Sungura wrote:I don't think anyone is against the ideas of women's groups. At least, I'm not. I'm just saying, I hate being told how I should feel, when I don't feel that way. And I deserve as much rights to my feelings as those who have the opposite feelings have the right to their feelings.

(that was wordy, but you get my point, I think)


How was the woman's group telling you how/what to feel exactly?

Like Delalyra I wanted to express the sentiment that Sarah, Enuja and Jess explained so well.

Re: [SAFESPACE] Woman Thread - #sharkweek on irc.foonetic.net

Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 8:51 pm UTC
by Sungura
Rinsaikeru wrote:
Sungura wrote:I don't think anyone is against the ideas of women's groups. At least, I'm not. I'm just saying, I hate being told how I should feel, when I don't feel that way. And I deserve as much rights to my feelings as those who have the opposite feelings have the right to their feelings.

(that was wordy, but you get my point, I think)


How was the woman's group telling you how/what to feel exactly?

Like Delalyra I wanted to express the sentiment that Sarah, Enuja and Jess explained so well.

They say that just because I ignore how people are oppressing me, doesn't mean it isn't happening, and therefore, I should become aware of how horribly I am being oppressed and be upset about it.

I am not saying people don't have bad experiences, I am just saying, personally, *I* have not. So just as I don't dare tell anyone who has troubles that they are wrong and they are wrong to feel that way, I expect the same courtesy in return. And, that is a courtesy I rarely get. And it annoys the heck out of me. Because no one should ever ever ever ever ever no matter what the topic is tell someone else how to feel!

Re: [SAFESPACE] Woman Thread - #sharkweek on irc.foonetic.net

Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 8:55 pm UTC
by Jessica
Snug, I understand what you're saying. I just disliked the way the conversation was heading, and I was starting to get uneasy. I can see how that would feel, because it can come off like that. I've seen women groups give off bad vibes, and it sucks. I'm sorry your experience was negatively impacted.

But, I also was starting to feel uneasy. I like woman spaces. And I wish I had transitioned earlier, so I could have experienced that at university. Right now, I enjoy the woman spaces I have now. And I'd hate to lose them. I know not everyone feels like they need help, but sometimes it's nice to know that if you do, there are people who understand, you know?

Re: [SAFESPACE] Woman Thread - #sharkweek on irc.foonetic.net

Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 10:02 pm UTC
by Enuja
Sungura wrote:I don't think anyone is against the ideas of women's groups. At least, I'm not. I'm just saying, I hate being told how I should feel, when I don't feel that way. And I deserve as much rights to my feelings as those who have the opposite feelings have the right to their feelings.
Sungura, I read this post by eliana as quite specifically and explicitly arguing that support groups for women are counter-productive and a bad idea. My post was primarily a response to that post by eliana. Secondarily, I was trying to convince you not to construe the existence of support groups for women as an attack on your viewpoint and position, just as people in support groups should not construe your non-participation as an attack on their support group. The fact that some people have told you that you should feel oppressed does not mean that the existence of a women-in-biotech support group is, by its mere existence, telling you to feel oppressed.

Re: [SAFESPACE] Woman Thread - #sharkweek on irc.foonetic.net

Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 1:16 am UTC
by crowey
Also, in biosciences (I would assume the case is similar for other sciencey fields), on average a woman needs a CV and publication record something like 3x better* than a man, to get the same job. A woman's name as first author on a paper means it's less likely to get published and if it does, it's more likely to get savanged in reviews and comments.*
I know you don't feel oppressed in your day to day life, and you probably aren't. In my experience biosciences are pretty even on the sexes for PhD and post-docs, and everyone is fairly liberal/accepting. But at the moment you are very early career and won't have felt the effects yet, and on average you will have more of a fight on your hands compared to equally qulified men, if you want to keep up the science as a career. Not to mention that if you ever intend to have kids you can kiss career progression goodbye, since a [length of maternity leave] long gap in your employment/publication record will damage your CV and if you're on a 2year contract, taking 9 months off to do baby stuff will really annoy your boss.
I can totally understand why women might want a support group, you might not want to be involved in it, and that's fine, but other women in your field do feel a group is useful to them, if nothing else it's somewhere to vent with like-minded people.

I don't mean to tell you how you should feel, or patronise about something you are probably aware of, but to be perfectly honest I can't understand how it doesn't make you angry, or at least frustrated that this is how things are and they are unlikely to change anytime soon. Sure, in the scheme of oppression of women, it being harder to get a job isn't the biggest deal ever, but it's still fucking rubbish.


*numbers off the top of my head, but remembered from proper research papers, I can reference up if you fancy a read. (Marlene Zuk is someone to look up if you want to do a women in science lit. search)

Re: [SAFESPACE] Woman Thread - #sharkweek on irc.foonetic.net

Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 3:01 am UTC
by crowey
double post, but whatevs. Sorry my last post wasn't very [SAFESPACE] friendly. :oops:

Re: [SAFESPACE] Woman Thread - #sharkweek on irc.foonetic.net

Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 4:39 am UTC
by Rinsaikeru
I think everyone has different experiences and different ways of dealing with the world--as evidenced in the past several posts. So there's not really a right or wrong, but I think we all have to admit (at least in this particular context) that our [SAFESPACE] is pretty damn awesome, and that if anyone can find the feeling I get from this thread elsewhere, I want them to have it.

Re: [SAFESPACE] Woman Thread - #sharkweek on irc.foonetic.net

Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 4:40 am UTC
by eliana
I'm sorry what I said came off the way it did. I don't disagree with women's spaces. I was referring to the attitude that I think is alive and well of the congratulatory and self-congratulatory nature of some people when faced with an intelligent woman. It should no longer be surprising, and a lot of the tone I experience seems to imply that it is.

Now, I am sorry I came off as being against women's spaces, or discussion, or woman-only milieu. I'm not. And I know I did say I was against woman's support groups, and that was wrong of me.

What I am against is victimization, and self-victimization, and granting ground to those who would say that it is harder for women to be in tech, not because of the culture, but because the going is hard for the weaker, gentler sex, so we should cater to their more tender needs. And in retrospect it was really irresponsible for me to say all support groups fall into that category, because I know that's not what all support groups are about.

I think what I described is a phenomenon that is alive, well, and unhealthy. I apologize for my rhetoric.

Re: [SAFESPACE] Woman Thread - #sharkweek on irc.foonetic.net

Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 8:01 am UTC
by MadParrot
Yikes - worm can. (so that's why I'm quiet normally, lol)Hmmm, yeah I guess I should qualify my remarks too :/

Firstly, sorry, the group in question was not really a 'support group' (if there is a definition for such things) - it was a group promoting/for women in IT - social things, scholarships, talking to female school students, presumable help services (but I'd have gone to the student union personally), that sort of thing - obviously I never was involved with them. I guess I shouldn't have called it that. It is my personal reaction, when approached by such a group (the biotech one too, but that was only a pamphlet once) to feel vaugly offended that they are somehow suggesting I am doing something difficult or unusual - because for me it never has been. (Yes, I'm young and inexperinced). Whether that's rational or not - I don't know. I guess my annoyance vanishes when I don't see them, even though I know they're still there (*runs around with hands over eyes - I can't seeeee youu*).

Support or information for women, or anyone else, who wants or needs it can only be a Good Thing. If someone feels hard done by in the workplace or something, they do need somewhere to go. And they do need to know that they have somewhere to go.

I guess the issue is where such services are pushed at those who have no need of them, and might somehow subconsiously reinforce some women-in-IT-are-unusual (even if statistically valid?) stereotype. E.g. scholarships avaiable to females only - (I'm not expert) but I like to belive that they'll going to study IT anyway - so just give it to whoever deserves/needs the scholarship most, regardless of sex. Ditto for coolness-of-IT demonstrations.

Perhaps in my little ideal world - there would be an non-gender specific <xyz>-promotion club, an <xyz> social club, and a <xyz> help service, which might have experience helping with possible discrimination/attitude issues struck by women, or people with red hair. :)

Re: [SAFESPACE] Woman Thread - #sharkweek on irc.foonetic.net

Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 1:19 pm UTC
by Jessica
Regarding women only scholarships into male dominated fields (like IT, and often many sciences), I don't see a problem. Usually they're created by third party foundations, trying to achieve a goal. That goal is more women in IT (or science or whatever), by giving another incentive to join. Because, currently, there are a lot of incentives to not go into male dominated fields.

And, yeah... these groups aren't saying you can't do it. They're trying to create a space where you aren't the only woman in the group.

Re: [SAFESPACE] Woman Thread - #sharkweek on irc.foonetic.net

Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 11:07 pm UTC
by PictureSarah
Readers of the girl thread who have an interest in makeup: You know what is really awesome? Lip stain. It soaks into your lips and stains them (as the name would imply), so that it can't kiss off or get on your teeth. The best part is that you can apply chapstick over it, and nothing bad happens.

I would like it if others would share their favorite cosmetic products. I know we have some pretty mixed feelings on makeup in this thread, and I'm not really advocating its use for anyone else, but I am about to start a new job, one where I'm going to be dealing with people pretty much all day every day, and I'd like to look a little bit spiffier than normal. I think I'm reasonably good with makeup...but I could always use more help!

So, tips, tricks, and favorites?

Re: [SAFESPACE] Woman Thread - #sharkweek on irc.foonetic.net

Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 11:19 pm UTC
by Sungura
Neutrogina makes an oil-free conceiler in a pen-like thing that has some salicylic acid in it for covering up red dots/pimples. I find it does a pretty good job and it blends nice. If I am feeling particularly self-conscious I use it. The salicylic acid never really worked that well for my face, but it does help by the end of the day dull the redness usually, so that is nice. And it covers it during the day. You just put it where you need it, it's not an all-over-your-face thing and it doesn't feel gross (I hate feeling anything on my face because it makes me feel dirty, and this doesn't give me that feeling).

Re: [SAFESPACE] Woman Thread - #sharkweek on irc.foonetic.net

Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 11:42 pm UTC
by Fractal_Tangent
Hello woman thread. *Waves*

Grumble grumble grumble.
I hate thongs, who first thought up the concept and who decided they were sexy? Blah blah blah I'd so much rather wear some comfortable pants or is that just me?

...probably just me.

Re: [SAFESPACE] Woman Thread - #sharkweek on irc.foonetic.net

Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 11:47 pm UTC
by Rinsaikeru
Hmm thongs in general are awful. There are some comfy ones I have though too. Hanky Panky or something makes them...

Makeup stuff: I like lip stain too, nice hint of pretty colour. I tend to use cream blush because I find it blends better than powder for me, and I can apply it with my fingers. Hmm, I don't use foundation usually, though occasionally I use under eye concealer--I'm quite pale and therefore prone to the sleep deprived under eye look.

Re: [SAFESPACE] Woman Thread - #sharkweek on irc.foonetic.net

Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 12:38 am UTC
by crowey
+1 to thong hate, I wear boxers most of the time. Even silly high kicks at kung fu don't give me a wedgie.

+1 to lip stain too, especially as I like to do bold eyemakeup, so subtle lips are good. I highly reccomend GOSH eyeliners, not sure if they are available in the US though, really durable, good quality (amost identical to MAC) and cheap, and the waterproof ones really are very waterproof (I've said it before in this thread, I've surfed for an afternoon with makeup on (left on from the previous night in true classy style), and my eye makeup didn't budge, even though I spent a large amount of time getting tubled by waves-I'm not very good at surfing). I also rate fyrinnae eyeshadows, they last really well, especially with a primer underneath.

Re: [SAFESPACE] Woman Thread - #sharkweek on irc.foonetic.net

Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 12:53 am UTC
by Cammy
I'm not a huge fan of makeup, but I'm pretty darn pale. I like to use a light bronzer all over my face and neck to not look like a vampire.

I also love Burt's Bees Lip Shimmer in Peony. I love the colour and it works just like their awesome chapstick.

Re: [SAFESPACE] Woman Thread - #sharkweek on irc.foonetic.net

Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 5:46 am UTC
by parkaboy
I'm an eyes person. Lips i play with but not much. Its all colors for me so I stick mostly to Urban Decay, although I am also a fan of MAC and would looOOOOOOOVE to add some Ben Nye to my small collection. I have also found that loose pigments you can find at craft stores, when mixed with visine (so as to be safer for your eyes should it get IN them) make BRILLIANT colors. Someday I'll have a camera that can capture the true colors I'm wearing, not a washed out somewhat representation.

I also love the red eyeshadow by ManicPanic. Coupled with UD's Honey, is my favorite look.

Re: [SAFESPACE] Woman Thread - #sharkweek on irc.foonetic.net

Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 11:22 am UTC
by tin
Regarding thongs: I only wear them if I know that they're going to be coming off quickly, if yer get me...

Regarding make-up: My sister swears by lip tint and it intrigues me! I'm going to look into it. I've never really been a lipstick person and usually concentrate on my eyes.

Most of the brands I buy are British ones, Sarah so i'm not sure what to recommend. Although, for my day-to-day make up, I usually keep it simple. Bit of foundation, a slick of lipgloss and a flick of eyeliner in a similar style to this random photo of Angeline Jolie I found, when googling "eyeliner". Basically a simple, cat eye look which isn't too overpowering and quick to do. Maybe that's an approach you could take for work?

crowey wrote:
...I highly reccomend GOSH eyeliners, not sure if they are available in the US though, really durable, good quality (amost identical to MAC) and cheap, and the waterproof ones really are very waterproof (I've said it before in this thread, I've surfed for an afternoon with makeup on (left on from the previous night in true classy style), and my eye makeup didn't budge, even though I spent a large amount of time getting tubled by waves-I'm not very good at surfing).


Really? I have GOSH mascara and it's okaaaay, but i've never checked out the eyeliners. I'm in need of a new, durable eyeliner.