Why we shouldn't ban guns...

Things that don't belong anywhere else. (Check first).

Moderators: Moderators General, Prelates, Magistrates

samusaran253
Posts: 38
Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2011 7:46 pm UTC

Why we shouldn't ban guns...

Postby samusaran253 » Wed May 25, 2011 10:04 pm UTC

Studies show that you're more likely to get mugged in London than NYC. Studies also show that home invasions are more common in the UK. And yet again, studies have shown that burglars are more afraid of armed civilians than they are of police forces. Also I ask that you bear in mind that almost every gun related crime in the US is committed with illegal firearms and almost never by civilians with permits. The criminals already have guns and they always will, so the normal/good/innocent people need guns too. It's not like anyone can just go buy a gun, there are several restrictions and you have to undergo training courses which teach you gun safety and how to properly use a firearm.

Guns are freedom, without guns there can be no freedom. Guns are the first, last, and only line of defense against tyrannical government, if you let the government take away you're firearms, then you give them complete control over you. We wouldn't have won the American Revolution had the British banned guns in their colonies. It's also a basic human right to own a gun and to defend ones self. A ban on guns would also be unconstitutional and if the government ever attempted to do such a thing, it would result in a civil war, one which the gun owners would win since the military is made up mostly of conservatives and libertarians, both of which are against banning guns.

The vast majority of people are against banning guns, as you can see here:
Image

When civilians have the right to carry firearms, crime rates go down, see Florida:
Image

Now when the government bans firearms completely, gun crime goes up, see DC:
Image
Last edited by samusaran253 on Thu May 26, 2011 7:52 pm UTC, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
Kang
Posts: 722
Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2010 4:30 pm UTC

Re: Democracy at work

Postby Kang » Thu May 26, 2011 5:32 pm UTC

Well, you wouldn't want the King of England walking in and ordering you around randomly, would you?

User avatar
iChef
Posts: 343
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2010 9:33 pm UTC
Location: About 5 cm. south of the ring finger, USA.

Re: Why we shouldn't ban guns...

Postby iChef » Fri May 27, 2011 12:58 am UTC

Depends, if it is William, sure he seems like a decent guy as long as he brings over some beer. We could have a cook-out and play ping-pong and lawn darts. If it Charles screw that I'm getting my .45.
Those whom God loves, he must make beautiful, and a beautiful character must, in some way, suffer.
-Tailsteak author of the Webcomics 1/0 and Leftover Soup

User avatar
yurell
Posts: 2924
Joined: Sat Nov 13, 2010 2:19 am UTC
Location: Australia!

Re: Why we shouldn't ban guns...

Postby yurell » Fri May 27, 2011 2:05 am UTC

samusaran253 wrote:The vast majority of people are against banning guns, as you can see here:


I'm not going to get into the debate about gun ownership, since no one is ever able to change anyone else's mind, but I thought I should point out ... your evidence is crap. "The vast majority" ... you've only showed that 1% of 1% of your population have an opinion, with no reasoning as to why we should take this as a representative sample, nor how the question was proposed to them.
Furthermore, 'outright ban' as an option is unlikely to work with anything, so it's unsurprising that people would refuse to give up their dubious 'right' if asked. As for your other graphical evidence, you have provided two data points. I don't know what happened in those states during those times (I'm not from the United States), and two datapoints are enough to make me wary, since I know that any two that would have been cherry picked would also be the best.

samusaran253 wrote:Studies show that you're more likely to get mugged in London than NYC. Studies also show that home invasions are more common in the UK.


The problem with such comparison though is that they are different countries, and difference in culture and economic positions are more than skin deep. Pointing to those statistics in the UK doesn't necessarily help your cause, I could just as easily point to The list of countries by intentional homicide rate and find the US as the highest of the Western world with 5.0 per 100 000 people. This is roughly three times the rate in the UK (I'm using that particular country since you're the one who brought it up). The overall crime rate in the UK is three times higher than the US on a per capita basis, but when I weight that against the homicide rate in the US, I'd rather be in a place where the chance of dying is less.
To put it this way - I would rather be robbed and raped than murdered.

The point behind this is you pointed to the UK and went 'Ha! No guns and look where it got them' (or at least, that's what I interpreted the comparison as) ... these are indeed two different countries, and the difference between the two contain more factors than just 'rate of firearm ownership'. This is made especially egregious since you don't reference these statistics again - you are not even attempting to compare two countries that are totally different on a sociopolitical level, you are just doing a simplistic 'guns vs no guns' comparison. I'm quite sure countries (and people) are more complicated than this.

samusaran253 wrote:The criminals already have guns and they always will, so the normal/good/innocent people need guns too.


How do these two necessarily follow? Please expand upon this point ... you're simply making an assertion without providing any supporting argument. You're also making the assumption that an increase in firearms is a good thing, rather than an attempt to decrease the firearms possessed by criminals. Please justify this assumption.

samusaran253 wrote:Guns are freedom, without guns there can be no freedom.


Justify this assertion.

samusaran253 wrote:Guns are the first, last, and only line of defense against tyrannical government, if you let the government take away you're firearms, then you give them complete control over you.


Let us presume, for a moment, that the parliament of the UK is not a tyrannical government. Why is it then bad that this government has taken away your fire arms? The advantage against tyrannical governments is quite clear, but what if a small proportion of the population saw the government as tyrannical, built up an arsenal and murdered the PM? You're the one requesting that they have the power to do so ... why should a government that isn't tyrannical not have complete control over these lethal weapons?

samusaran253 wrote:We wouldn't have won the American Revolution had the British banned guns in their colonies.


And this relates to the present ... how?

samusaran253 wrote:It's also a basic human right to own a gun and to defend ones self.


Really? Here's a link to theUniversal Declaration of Human Rights. Is my search function broken, or is there no mention of 'gun' or 'firearm' anywhere in the document? This is, again, another unjustified assertion.

samusaran253 wrote:A ban on guns would also be unconstitutional


Indeed it would, but if your amendments show anything it's that you're willing to modify that constitution as need has it.

samusaran253 wrote:if the government ever attempted to do such a thing, it would result in a civil war


Let's, for one insane moment, assume the government doesn't go "Right, all guns, banned" but rather slowly phases them out, like with smoking ... what reasoning do you have for that starting a civil war? Again, I'm not arguing against guns (or proposing it wouldn't start a civil war), I'm arguing against the particular arguments you're using.
cemper93 wrote:Dude, I just presented an elaborate multiple fraction in Comic Sans. Who are you to question me?


Pronouns: Feminine pronouns please!

User avatar
Garm
Posts: 2241
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2007 5:29 pm UTC
Location: Usually at work. Otherwise, Longmont, CO.

Re: Why we shouldn't ban guns...

Postby Garm » Fri May 27, 2011 2:08 am UTC

I love when people use internet polls to justify things. Systematic bias much?
Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable.
- JFK

User avatar
SecondTalon
SexyTalon
Posts: 26528
Joined: Sat May 05, 2007 2:10 pm UTC
Location: Louisville, Kentucky, USA, Mars. HA!
Contact:

Re: Why we shouldn't ban guns...

Postby SecondTalon » Fri May 27, 2011 2:16 am UTC

I love it when people rehash beat-into-the-ground arguments from SB in General.

Because it means I can do this.

Image
heuristically_alone wrote:I want to write a DnD campaign and play it by myself and DM it myself.
heuristically_alone wrote:I have been informed that this is called writing a book.

User avatar
SurgicalSteel
Posts: 1926
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2010 4:18 pm UTC
Location: DMV, USA

Re: Why we shouldn't ban guns...

Postby SurgicalSteel » Fri May 27, 2011 2:22 am UTC

samusaran253: I am extremely pro-gun, but even I am annoyed by your argument style. You've simply repeated a bunch of sound-bites and bumper sticker catch-phrases with no expansion on the idea or justification for the assertion. You've also listed statistics and provided no citations. Pretty much everything yurell said.

Besides all that, your method of starting a post with very little content and adding to it little by little over the course of a few days is pretty annoying, and makes the conversation hard to follow because the conversation seed keeps changing. Spend some time to write out a quality post with all the points you want to make, save it in a word file if you have to spend a couple days on it, then post it all at once. Piecemeal posts aren't fun to read, especially if the pieces come in out of order.



edit: awww, puppies
"There's spray paint on the teleprompter
Anchorman screams that he's seen a monster (mayday)
There's blood stains on his shirt (mayday)
They say that he's gone berserk."
--Flobots "Mayday"

User avatar
SecondTalon
SexyTalon
Posts: 26528
Joined: Sat May 05, 2007 2:10 pm UTC
Location: Louisville, Kentucky, USA, Mars. HA!
Contact:

Re: Why we shouldn't ban guns...

Postby SecondTalon » Fri May 27, 2011 2:23 am UTC

You're damn right!

Image
heuristically_alone wrote:I want to write a DnD campaign and play it by myself and DM it myself.
heuristically_alone wrote:I have been informed that this is called writing a book.

User avatar
SamaraLexx
Posts: 205
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2011 4:29 am UTC
Location: Brooklyn, NY

Re: Why we shouldn't ban guns...

Postby SamaraLexx » Fri May 27, 2011 2:28 am UTC

SecondTalon wrote:Image


Hmm, you make an interesting point. But I must counter with -

Image

User avatar
SecondTalon
SexyTalon
Posts: 26528
Joined: Sat May 05, 2007 2:10 pm UTC
Location: Louisville, Kentucky, USA, Mars. HA!
Contact:

Re: Why we shouldn't ban guns...

Postby SecondTalon » Fri May 27, 2011 2:34 am UTC

You're clearly not keeping up with my latest argument. Your debate skills need work. Now pay attention as I work from a modified premise.

Image
heuristically_alone wrote:I want to write a DnD campaign and play it by myself and DM it myself.
heuristically_alone wrote:I have been informed that this is called writing a book.

User avatar
SurgicalSteel
Posts: 1926
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2010 4:18 pm UTC
Location: DMV, USA

Re: Why we shouldn't ban guns...

Postby SurgicalSteel » Fri May 27, 2011 2:41 am UTC

SecondTalon wrote:Image
That's a strawman if I ever saw one. Here, let me show you some statistics to prove it:
scout.jpg
"There's spray paint on the teleprompter
Anchorman screams that he's seen a monster (mayday)
There's blood stains on his shirt (mayday)
They say that he's gone berserk."
--Flobots "Mayday"

User avatar
SecondTalon
SexyTalon
Posts: 26528
Joined: Sat May 05, 2007 2:10 pm UTC
Location: Louisville, Kentucky, USA, Mars. HA!
Contact:

Re: Why we shouldn't ban guns...

Postby SecondTalon » Fri May 27, 2011 2:44 am UTC

Oh, come on. That's clearly biased.

Image
heuristically_alone wrote:I want to write a DnD campaign and play it by myself and DM it myself.
heuristically_alone wrote:I have been informed that this is called writing a book.

User avatar
SurgicalSteel
Posts: 1926
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2010 4:18 pm UTC
Location: DMV, USA

Re: Why we shouldn't ban guns...

Postby SurgicalSteel » Fri May 27, 2011 2:57 am UTC

Listen, you better provide some citations or I'm outta here
Image

why am I posting pictures of dogs on a forum instead of going to sleep for christ's sake?
"There's spray paint on the teleprompter
Anchorman screams that he's seen a monster (mayday)
There's blood stains on his shirt (mayday)
They say that he's gone berserk."
--Flobots "Mayday"

User avatar
SecondTalon
SexyTalon
Posts: 26528
Joined: Sat May 05, 2007 2:10 pm UTC
Location: Louisville, Kentucky, USA, Mars. HA!
Contact:

Re: Why we shouldn't ban guns...

Postby SecondTalon » Fri May 27, 2011 2:58 am UTC

Image
heuristically_alone wrote:I want to write a DnD campaign and play it by myself and DM it myself.
heuristically_alone wrote:I have been informed that this is called writing a book.

User avatar
Deva
Has suggestions for the murderers out there.
Posts: 2043
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2011 5:18 am UTC

Re: Why we shouldn't ban guns...

Postby Deva » Fri May 27, 2011 3:06 am UTC

Seems relevant.
29118001.jpg
Changes its form depending on the observer.

User avatar
Thesh
Made to Fuck Dinosaurs
Posts: 6598
Joined: Tue Jan 12, 2010 1:55 am UTC
Location: Colorado

Re: Why we shouldn't ban guns...

Postby Thesh » Fri May 27, 2011 4:01 am UTC

I guess I'll throw in my $.02

straw dog.jpeg
Summum ius, summa iniuria.

User avatar
SecondTalon
SexyTalon
Posts: 26528
Joined: Sat May 05, 2007 2:10 pm UTC
Location: Louisville, Kentucky, USA, Mars. HA!
Contact:

Re: Why we shouldn't ban guns...

Postby SecondTalon » Fri May 27, 2011 4:09 am UTC

Now that's a strawman argument.

Image
heuristically_alone wrote:I want to write a DnD campaign and play it by myself and DM it myself.
heuristically_alone wrote:I have been informed that this is called writing a book.

User avatar
Cloud Walker
Posts: 605
Joined: Fri Jun 12, 2009 3:37 am UTC
Location: Midwest, USA, Earth, Sol, Milky Way
Contact:

Re: Why we shouldn't ban guns...

Postby Cloud Walker » Fri May 27, 2011 4:14 am UTC

Image
Because I have loved life, I shall have no sorrow to die. - Amelia Burr

I make pretty pictures!: Photography & Video Production

User avatar
poxic
Eloquently Prismatic
Posts: 4756
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2008 3:28 am UTC
Location: Left coast of Canada

Re: Why we shouldn't ban guns...

Postby poxic » Fri May 27, 2011 5:43 am UTC

I fucking love the fora.

Also:
e7c2e782-e686-4454-991c-9cb003920cfc.gif
Oh me yarm tetherball!
e7c2e782-e686-4454-991c-9cb003920cfc.gif (1.85 MiB) Viewed 10378 times
The Supreme Ethical Rule: Act so as to elicit the best in others and thereby in thyself.
- Felix Adler, professor, lecturer, and reformer (13 Aug 1851-1933)

_Axle_
Posts: 253
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2010 7:33 pm UTC

Re: Why we shouldn't ban guns...

Postby _Axle_ » Fri May 27, 2011 6:06 am UTC

..... I can't resist joining in on this....

Image
Yakk wrote:Computer Science is to Programming as Materials Physics is to Structural Engineering.

User avatar
Magnanimous
Madmanananimous
Posts: 3491
Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2010 7:11 pm UTC
Location: Land of Hipsters and Rain (LOHAR)

Re: Why we shouldn't ban guns...

Postby Magnanimous » Fri May 27, 2011 6:51 am UTC

Image

User avatar
SurgicalSteel
Posts: 1926
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2010 4:18 pm UTC
Location: DMV, USA

Re: Why we shouldn't ban guns...

Postby SurgicalSteel » Fri May 27, 2011 7:16 am UTC

Your honor, my client would like to enter a plea of insanity
IMG_1877.png
"There's spray paint on the teleprompter
Anchorman screams that he's seen a monster (mayday)
There's blood stains on his shirt (mayday)
They say that he's gone berserk."
--Flobots "Mayday"

User avatar
SlyReaper
inflatable
Posts: 8015
Joined: Mon Dec 31, 2007 11:09 pm UTC
Location: Bristol, Old Blighty

Re: Why we shouldn't ban guns...

Postby SlyReaper » Fri May 27, 2011 7:32 am UTC

This is why I love this forum.
Image
What would Baron Harkonnen do?

User avatar
Menacing Spike
Posts: 2982
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2010 8:25 pm UTC
Location: Fighting the Zombie.

Re: Why we shouldn't ban guns...

Postby Menacing Spike » Fri May 27, 2011 8:29 am UTC

Look what this good and honest troll thread has become :(.

Image

User avatar
You, sir, name?
Posts: 6983
Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2007 10:07 am UTC
Location: Chako Paul City
Contact:

Re: Why we shouldn't ban guns...

Postby You, sir, name? » Fri May 27, 2011 9:32 am UTC

Magnanimous wrote:Image
cats-kitten-sink.jpg
cats-kitten-sink.jpg (16.4 KiB) Viewed 10259 times
I edit my posts a lot and sometimes the words wrong order words appear in sentences get messed up.

User avatar
the_bandersnatch
Actually not so frumious.
Posts: 939
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2008 11:46 am UTC
Location: on a bed in a room inside a TV in a hotel room in a hotel on a Monopoly board

Re: Why we shouldn't ban guns...

Postby the_bandersnatch » Fri May 27, 2011 10:44 am UTC

You're all mad. But that's why we loves ya.

Image
In girum imus nocte, et consumimur igni

User avatar
gmalivuk
GNU Terry Pratchett
Posts: 26819
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2007 6:02 pm UTC
Location: Here and There
Contact:

Re: Why we shouldn't ban guns...

Postby gmalivuk » Fri May 27, 2011 11:50 am UTC

samusaran253 wrote:Now when the government bans firearms completely, gun crime goes up, see DC
Right...

So, what is it that caused the rate to plummet starting more than a decade *before* the law was struck down? Did criminals become psychic, and realize "hey guys in about a dozen years civilians are gonna start carrying around handguns again, we better stop shooting each other now!"?

Anyway, I like wolfhounds.
Image
Unless stated otherwise, I do not care whether a statement, by itself, constitutes a persuasive political argument. I care whether it's true.
---
If this post has math that doesn't work for you, use TeX the World for Firefox or Chrome

(he/him/his)

User avatar
Obby
Posts: 785
Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2008 11:37 pm UTC
Location: Philadelphia

Re: Why we shouldn't ban guns...

Postby Obby » Fri May 27, 2011 11:58 am UTC

Clearly, cat-dog is superior.

Image
The story so far:
In the beginning the Universe was created.
This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move.

User avatar
Felstaff
Occam's Taser
Posts: 5178
Joined: Fri Feb 01, 2008 7:10 pm UTC
Location: ¢ ₪ ¿ ¶ § ∴ ® © ™ ؟ ¡ ‽ æ Þ ° ₰ ₤ ಡಢ

Re: Why we shouldn't ban puns...

Postby Felstaff » Fri May 27, 2011 12:00 pm UTC

samusaran253 wrote:Now when the government bans firearms completely, gun crime goes up, see DC

CORRELATION DOG DISAGREES!
Spoiler:
Image


C'mon, you gotta give me mad props for joining in the good-natured bandwagoning, and simultaneously being on-topic!
Away, you scullion! you rampallion! You fustilarian! I'll tickle your catastrophe.

Mumpy
Posts: 730
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 7:20 pm UTC
Location: Oxford, England

Re: Why we shouldn't ban guns...

Postby Mumpy » Fri May 27, 2011 1:01 pm UTC

I'll give props to anyone who asks for them

Spoiler:
Image

User avatar
SecondTalon
SexyTalon
Posts: 26528
Joined: Sat May 05, 2007 2:10 pm UTC
Location: Louisville, Kentucky, USA, Mars. HA!
Contact:

Re: Why we shouldn't ban guns...

Postby SecondTalon » Fri May 27, 2011 1:13 pm UTC

Hey! Hey hey hey goddamn it!

Image

Carry on.
heuristically_alone wrote:I want to write a DnD campaign and play it by myself and DM it myself.
heuristically_alone wrote:I have been informed that this is called writing a book.

User avatar
You, sir, name?
Posts: 6983
Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2007 10:07 am UTC
Location: Chako Paul City
Contact:

Re: Why we shouldn't ban guns...

Postby You, sir, name? » Fri May 27, 2011 1:16 pm UTC

As a physicist, my standpoint in this debate is as follows
guncontrol.png
guncontrol.png (2.6 KiB) Viewed 10144 times
I edit my posts a lot and sometimes the words wrong order words appear in sentences get messed up.

User avatar
Oregonaut
Posts: 6511
Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2010 9:58 pm UTC
Location: Oregon

Re: Why we shouldn't ban guns...

Postby Oregonaut » Fri May 27, 2011 1:17 pm UTC

I have a four point conjecture for you to consider.

black-lab-meth-lab.jpg
- Ochigo the Earth-Stomper

The EGE wrote:
Mumpy wrote:And to this day, librarians revile Oregonaut as the Antichrist.

False! We sacrifice our card catalogues to him in the name of Job Security!

User avatar
apricity
almost grown-up but not quite
Posts: 3983
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2007 9:28 am UTC

Re: Why we shouldn't ban guns...

Postby apricity » Fri May 27, 2011 1:44 pm UTC

kitty stuffie.gif
kitty stuffie.gif (1.92 MiB) Viewed 10126 times
LE4d wrote:have you considered becoming an electron

it takes just a little practice to learn to be
(she/her/hers)

User avatar
Kang
Posts: 722
Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2010 4:30 pm UTC

Re: Why we shouldn't ban guns...

Postby Kang » Fri May 27, 2011 1:49 pm UTC

Amazingly when I replied to this thread earlier it was just the map thingy. I dislike when people edit their preceding posts like that, it generally makes reading threads so weird.

User avatar
SecondTalon
SexyTalon
Posts: 26528
Joined: Sat May 05, 2007 2:10 pm UTC
Location: Louisville, Kentucky, USA, Mars. HA!
Contact:

Re: Why we shouldn't ban guns...

Postby SecondTalon » Fri May 27, 2011 1:53 pm UTC

Kang wrote:Amazingly when I replied to this thread earlier it was just the map thingy. I dislike when people edit their preceding posts like that, it generally makes reading threads so weird.

Hence, the current direction of the thread. Everyone can follow it, everyone can debate the pros and cons, and everyone knows what's going on.

Complete anarchy.

Image
heuristically_alone wrote:I want to write a DnD campaign and play it by myself and DM it myself.
heuristically_alone wrote:I have been informed that this is called writing a book.

DSenette
Posts: 2418
Joined: Fri Mar 06, 2009 8:08 pm UTC

Re: Why we shouldn't ban guns...

Postby DSenette » Fri May 27, 2011 2:06 pm UTC

it seems to me that this is an issue that you'd have to wrestle with for a long time to come up with an answer

Image
The Righteous Hand Of Retribution
"The evaporation of 4 million who believe this crap would leave the world an instantly better place." ~Andre Codresu (re: "the Rapture")

User avatar
Menacing Spike
Posts: 2982
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2010 8:25 pm UTC
Location: Fighting the Zombie.

Re: Why we shouldn't ban guns...

Postby Menacing Spike » Fri May 27, 2011 2:17 pm UTC

DSenette wrote:it seems to me that this is an issue that you'd have to wrestle with for a long time to come up with an answer


Some might even find the debate... unbearable.

Image

(DIE 56K modems DIE)

DSenette
Posts: 2418
Joined: Fri Mar 06, 2009 8:08 pm UTC

Re: Why we shouldn't ban guns...

Postby DSenette » Fri May 27, 2011 2:25 pm UTC

perhaps if we separate ourself from the issue a bit, we'd be able to seal the deal.

Image
The Righteous Hand Of Retribution
"The evaporation of 4 million who believe this crap would leave the world an instantly better place." ~Andre Codresu (re: "the Rapture")

User avatar
Mother Superior
Better than tea
Posts: 2405
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 9:30 am UTC
Location: Sweden
Contact:

Re: Why we shouldn't ban guns...

Postby Mother Superior » Fri May 27, 2011 5:39 pm UTC

Guns are freedom, without guns there can be no freedom.


Awww, shit. I'm not free? :(
My crappy creepy? Crabby? My crabby blog.
"She bore also the fruitless deep with his raging swell, Pontus, without sweet union of love."
- Hesiod, Theogony


Return to “General”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 33 guests