[SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQ Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Rinsaikeru » Fri May 01, 2009 4:07 am UTC

I've loved reading this thread so far and I've got hugs for everyone.

At my university (when I was a student), the group is called TBLGAY (Trans Bi Lesbian Gay Alliance at York)--my friends and I used to always visit their table on orientation week and try to get a condom in every colour. Sometimes the people working at the table would help. :D

I'm now a swing dancer in Toronto and I know there's a group called "Swinging Out." Which is sort of a swing dance AND LGBTIQQ pun... One of the things that is something of an issue with swing dancing for those from Swinging Out that come to dances that are outside that particular community is that there's an assumption that women follow and men lead.* But lately I've seen more dancers out...makes me excited. Also makes me want everyone to have buttons that say lead, follow, or both.


*Other issues like use of pejoratives etc. has happened too--even though the swing dance community by and large is fantastic and tries to be inclusive.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQ Thread - Queer Support!

Postby steewi » Fri May 01, 2009 9:15 am UTC

Rinsaikeru wrote:I'm now a swing dancer in Toronto and I know there's a group called "Swinging Out." Which is sort of a swing dance AND LGBTIQQ pun... One of the things that is something of an issue with swing dancing for those from Swinging Out that come to dances that are outside that particular community is that there's an assumption that women follow and men lead.* But lately I've seen more dancers out...makes me excited. Also makes me want everyone to have buttons that say lead, follow, or both.


Now I want to move to Toronto. I can't complain I guess. There's a G&L Bushdance here every year ("traditional" Aussie dances) and I've never been. I don't even know when it is. Perhaps I should investigate. It'd be hella scary for me, but I know I can dance (lead and follow!).

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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQ Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Belial » Fri May 01, 2009 11:26 am UTC

CueBall wrote:On the subject of effminency, I had some problems there regarding coming out.

In short, a lot of people didn't believe me, because I don't act gay. It sucked. It's only now that people have met my boyfriend (10 months tomorrow :D) that they believe me. Roughly 2 years later.


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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQ Thread - Queer Support!

Postby CueBall » Fri May 01, 2009 11:30 am UTC

Oh, I approve.
Spoiler:
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQ Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Daoshi » Fri May 01, 2009 11:48 am UTC

I've been quite confused, and I have no clue what I would "classify" myself as.

I've only been in heterosexual relationships. Things always seem to go well, even as sex comes along. I don't aim for sex. I don't strive for sex. Hell, I don't "want" sex. I don't have those urges, but I do enjoy sex. So that confuses me in the first place. I don't know what "love" is, because apparently the way I care for people isn't "love." It feels like I merge my emotions with those of others. When the one I care for is depressed, I stack that onto myself. When they are happy, I feel accomplished. But my relationships always take a turn for the worst at that point. (Appropriate?)

I'm very feminine. I often wave my hands and try to express the mood of my story with body motions as I talk, and it completely slips by me noticing. My friends often jokingly mock me for it, but I never know how I feel about their jokes so I always joke back. I'm sure several of them think I'm gay, but I have no clue how I feel about generally anything anymore. I've taken recent opportunities to express that I don't care what they think, and when I'm joked with I've decided that it's my duty to make them feel uncomfortable. I feel suppressed and discouraged. I don't know what I want, or if I want anything. I'm just confused.

So hi, thread.

Edit: I feel this is somewhat relevant. Recently, I never spend time with my male friends. We talk, occasionally, but I just never see them. I've been hanging out with two of my female friends who I can't help but refer to as my "girlfriends," and of course I don't mean that in the relationship-heavy definition. Looking at my history, I can't help but feel awkward that they are the two I spend time with. One is a younger girl that I've always adored. She's free spirited and acts like a child, but everyone around her can't help but feel happy. Life would be so difficult if she wasn't around anymore. The other has been a friend for a long time. She once got me suspended from school by telling the counselors that I'd hurt myself. We didn't speak for a long time after that, but somehow she ended up being one of my closest friends. I also don't find I can talk to them about my confusion. I've tried, but the words just don't convey right.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQ Thread - Queer Support!

Postby DJorgensen » Fri May 01, 2009 8:11 pm UTC

Daoshi wrote:I'm very feminine. I often wave my hands and try to express the mood of my story with body motions as I talk, and it completely slips by me noticing. My friends often jokingly mock me for it, but I never know how I feel about their jokes so I always joke back. I'm sure several of them think I'm gay, but I have no clue how I feel about generally anything anymore. I've taken recent opportunities to express that I don't care what they think, and when I'm joked with I've decided that it's my duty to make them feel uncomfortable. I feel suppressed and discouraged. I don't know what I want, or if I want anything. I'm just confused.

I did the same growing up and was made fun of a great deal for it. Though I knew that I liked girls more than guys, so it really failed to make sense.
I also talked differently at home and at school - at home I was spoke more girly too.

Girly does not equal gay.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQ Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Daoshi » Fri May 01, 2009 8:29 pm UTC

I wasn't trying to imply "Oh dear, I act feminine so I'm afraid I'm gay." I'm not exactly sure what I was going on about, entirely. See, it's almost that it's not that I'm afraid to talk about how I feel, but that I don't know how I feel or what to say.

... I don't make sense. :oops:
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQ Thread - Queer Support!

Postby DJorgensen » Fri May 01, 2009 9:28 pm UTC

Daoshi wrote:I wasn't trying to imply "Oh dear, I act feminine so I'm afraid I'm gay." I'm not exactly sure what I was going on about, entirely. See, it's almost that it's not that I'm afraid to talk about how I feel, but that I don't know how I feel or what to say.

... I don't make sense. :oops:

*hug*
It's ok~
You're sounding like me :P
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQ Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Daoshi » Fri May 01, 2009 9:46 pm UTC

I mean, I've thought about it a lot, but my mind works in obscure connections, slanted definitions, and infinite loops. If anything, the least I may have discovered is that I might be asexual? The way my relationships turn out, I think I just perpetuate a relationship to fit the social norm of what I'm supposed to be doing when I get the feelings that a person needs me. You know, a bad idea to have a relationship. But... Again, ~no clue~.

Edit: Even if I have no clue what I'm saying, and nobody here has idea hint at sense in my ramblings, I feel like going on anyway. Good for the soul.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQ Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Shivahn » Fri May 01, 2009 10:33 pm UTC

Daoshi wrote:I wasn't trying to imply "Oh dear, I act feminine so I'm afraid I'm gay." I'm not exactly sure what I was going on about, entirely. See, it's almost that it's not that I'm afraid to talk about how I feel, but that I don't know how I feel or what to say.

... I don't make sense. :oops:


Actually....that makes perfect sense. I'm the same way with gender, though not sexuality.

In any case, good luck on your search. Hopefully it will be fruitful :P.

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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQ Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Zohar » Sat May 02, 2009 8:11 am UTC

I've a question - are trans people often also gay? I'm just saying because I don't have many examples except DJorgensen and Jessica, who are both into women.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQ Thread - Queer Support!

Postby natraj » Sat May 02, 2009 8:19 am UTC

I don't know. I know lots of lesbian trans women, and gay trans men, but I also know plenty of straight or bi or pan or otherwise notexclusivelygay trans people. So who knows! I have never seen any statistics on transgendered people's sexualities. I have ovaries but ID as male and I am definitely mostly (but not entirely exclusively) into guys. Hm.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQ Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Shivahn » Sat May 02, 2009 8:32 am UTC

Zohar wrote:I've a question - are trans people often also gay? I'm just saying because I don't have many examples except DJorgensen and Jessica, who are both into women.


I'm not quite sure what you're asking, but it's important to note that sexuality and gender aren't necessarily related. I'm think that's obvious, given that there are gay men who are, well, manly, and there are feminine lesbians. Transgendered people, too, can be attracted to any gender. I certainly don't know what gender I am, if any, but I have a definite attraction to girls. So in this case, I have very clear sexuality, but an unclear gender. You might be interested in this wikipedia article, as it describes gender-independent ways of expressing sexual attraction.

I wish I had the studies, but I seem to recall transwomen being attracted mostly to other women at a rate of about 80%, so yes, it is very common for transwomen, at least, to be gay. I don't know if transmen have a similar phenomenon or not.

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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQ Thread - Queer Support!

Postby DJorgensen » Sat May 02, 2009 4:09 pm UTC

Zohar wrote:I've a question - are trans people often also gay? I'm just saying because I don't have many examples except DJorgensen and Jessica, who are both into women.

I find transfolk more willing to experiment with their sexuality just simply as a result of needing to clear up some confusions with life. I think that most transfolk are bi - if only at least to some degree.
I personally prefer women mostly since I've had bad experiences with guys and good ones with women. I still like guys and don't see anything wrong with trying it again some day.

That said with the transfolk that I know, many of them are gay - both transguys and transgirls.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQ Thread

Postby Numzane » Sat May 02, 2009 9:56 pm UTC

Aiko wrote:
Spoiler:
I know that I like both girls and guys, although like Delalyra, I'm more a 2 than a 3 on the Kinsey scale. But it's weird to refer to myself as bisexual, and weird to even come out and say it like I just did.
So I have a question. When in a relationship would you tell someone you're bi? Do they need to know? I kind of feel like they should... i mean, I'm much too young now, but if I was to someday get married to a guy and not have him know I'm bi?
And I'm superconfused because I can't really picture myself in a LTR with a girl. A large part of me thinks that's because I've never dated a girl seriously, and a small part of me thinks that maybe I shouldn't call myself bi, then. I'm confused. And another part of me is like "oh, it's just a phase". And maybe it is, but then should I ignore and pretend it isn't there?

I don't know. More than anything else, I'm confused, as you can all see. And I apologize for the general rambleness of this post.
I know I'm a bit late here, but this is pretty much me exactly, except with the genders reversed. I'm mostly attracted to women, but I sometimes fantasize about sex with men. I can't really picture myself in an LTR with a guy, though that may be, as Belial suggested, because I don't really see many guy/guy relationships around. I'm not really sure how I want to ID, since bi doesn't seem to fit quite right. I like the idea of pansexuality, but that has the disadvantage that not all that many people around here know what it means. So anyway, I'm somewhat confused about it all, but I'm sure it'll all work out sooner or later.

Btw, love this thread :D
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQ Thread - Queer Support!

Postby happy-go-lucky » Sat May 02, 2009 10:29 pm UTC

Hey, I was wondering if anyone could offer some advice.
My girlfriend is trans (mtf) and she's only told a few friends and her immediate family. She finds it really difficult to find clothes she's comfortable wearing. She doesn't like most girls clothes partly because of the way they look on her (she can't start any physical changes for another year) and partly because she's just picky with clothes. On the other hand, she doesn't like guys clothes for obvious reasons, so she tends to end up with fairly unisex band t shirts and jeans, (apart from one dress.) She's into the whole gothic lacy stuff, and she quite often gets quite down about not being able to wear clothes she really likes :(
I guess I'm hoping someone will know of some magic online shop full of clothes she'll like or something, I don't know. Any help would be really appreciated (especially as her birthday is coming up and as part of her present I said I'd hunt down some clothes she might like and let her pick something) (basically I suck at clothes shopping.) (I use parentheses too much.)

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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQ Thread - Queer Support!

Postby DJorgensen » Sun May 03, 2009 1:47 am UTC

Well part of it depends on her body type really. I always found tanks to work better than cami tops (or anything with small straps since I lacked boobs and it would emphasize my shoulders). I also wore girls jeans and girls pants. They are cut differently and work well.
Dresses and skirts and such were really really difficult for me to start liking. I love sarongs and wrap skirts though. Dresses I still have to try on just in case.

As for gothy clothes, Lip Service makes your typical gothy clothes, Heavy Red also makes good stuff though their photos are rarely great on their site. Also if you are in the US, you can probably find a lot of stuff at Hot Topic. Ebay works if you are cool with buying online just as well too!
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQ Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Osha » Sun May 03, 2009 6:17 pm UTC

The first thing I felt comfortable wearing was a long flowy skirt. Very comfortable, very feminine, yet works just fine on a male body. Also jeans seconded! Jeans are the best!
I've only now (6 months after starting HRT) been able to start being comfortable wearing feminine shirts, and I still broke down crying the last time I went clothes shopping because nothing fit right...
Another idea is shoes, if she has big feet then it is impossible to find good womans shoes locally (at least here in Boise) and you have to go online (such as zappos.com) and even then the selection isn't great and they tend to be expensive which makes shoe shopping very stressful.

Also: a whole year before starting HRT? That's ridiculous :x

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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQ Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Terebrant » Sun May 03, 2009 7:19 pm UTC

I don't know how helpful it is but a friend altered her dresses to make them comfortable before HRT. Alteration is not too hard if you have the right tools and the clothing lends itself to it but it is still time consuming. Some stores might do it too but they are getting rare now that prêt-à-porter is well implanted.

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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQ Thread - Queer Support!

Postby happy-go-lucky » Sun May 03, 2009 11:52 pm UTC

Osha wrote:The first thing I felt comfortable wearing was a long flowy skirt. Very comfortable, very feminine, yet works just fine on a male body. Also jeans seconded! Jeans are the best!
I've only now (6 months after starting HRT) been able to start being comfortable wearing feminine shirts, and I still broke down crying the last time I went clothes shopping because nothing fit right...
Another idea is shoes, if she has big feet then it is impossible to find good womans shoes locally (at least here in Boise) and you have to go online (such as zappos.com) and even then the selection isn't great and they tend to be expensive which makes shoe shopping very stressful.


Money is a factor, not that I don't want to spend it on her, I just can't spend money I don't have :p My budget for the clothes is about £50 (don't know what that is in $ or euros) so most of the stuff on those sites you posted is a bit on the expensive side (although awesome and pretty.)

Osha wrote:Also: a whole year before starting HRT? That's ridiculous :x

I think she's been going to therapy for about two years, but she's not even allowed to start on blockers or anything until she's 18 :(

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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQ Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Jessica » Mon May 04, 2009 1:41 am UTC

happy-go-lucky wrote:
Osha wrote:The first thing I felt comfortable wearing was a long flowy skirt. Very comfortable, very feminine, yet works just fine on a male body. Also jeans seconded! Jeans are the best!
I've only now (6 months after starting HRT) been able to start being comfortable wearing feminine shirts, and I still broke down crying the last time I went clothes shopping because nothing fit right...
Another idea is shoes, if she has big feet then it is impossible to find good womans shoes locally (at least here in Boise) and you have to go online (such as zappos.com) and even then the selection isn't great and they tend to be expensive which makes shoe shopping very stressful.


Money is a factor, not that I don't want to spend it on her, I just can't spend money I don't have :p My budget for the clothes is about £50 (don't know what that is in $ or euros) so most of the stuff on those sites you posted is a bit on the expensive side (although awesome and pretty.)

Osha wrote:Also: a whole year before starting HRT? That's ridiculous :x

I think she's been going to therapy for about two years, but she's not even allowed to start on blockers or anything until she's 18 :(

That sucks a lot. So much. My heart goes out to her.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQ Thread - Queer Support!

Postby diotimajsh » Mon May 04, 2009 1:59 am UTC

Rinsaikeru wrote:I'm now a swing dancer in Toronto and I know there's a group called "Swinging Out." Which is sort of a swing dance AND LGBTIQQ pun... One of the things that is something of an issue with swing dancing for those from Swinging Out that come to dances that are outside that particular community is that there's an assumption that women follow and men lead.* But lately I've seen more dancers out...makes me excited. Also makes me want everyone to have buttons that say lead, follow, or both.

That's really cool, the automatic assumption of male-lead female-follow is something that rather bugged me back when I was into social dancing.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQ Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Rinsaikeru » Mon May 04, 2009 4:42 am UTC

I'm there often enough that I know who leads or follows regardless of gender--but sometimes with new or out of town visitors it's harder to know. I've seen the buttons in. use at a swing event run by the university of toronto swing club.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQ Thread - Queer Support!

Postby steewi » Mon May 04, 2009 4:57 am UTC

diotimajsh wrote:
Rinsaikeru wrote:I'm now a swing dancer in Toronto and I know there's a group called "Swinging Out." Which is sort of a swing dance AND LGBTIQQ pun... One of the things that is something of an issue with swing dancing for those from Swinging Out that come to dances that are outside that particular community is that there's an assumption that women follow and men lead.* But lately I've seen more dancers out...makes me excited. Also makes me want everyone to have buttons that say lead, follow, or both.

That's really cool, the automatic assumption of male-lead female-follow is something that rather bugged me back when I was into social dancing.

Oddly enough, that doesn't bother me at all. Most of the dancing I do is traditional stuff, so male-lead female-follow is following tradition. I'm also very OK with breaking tradition. For example, it doesn't bother anybody that women dance as leads when there aren't enough men to go around. All the women and some of the guys are OK with mean dancing as follow if there aren't enough women (I give plenty of bonus points to the straight guys who do it without feeling less manly). Most of the rest are a little awkward about dancing with another man, but deal with it. A couple of them are really quite put out by it and one or two flat-out refuse to dance with a man (though I'm fine with them doing that - they're creepy). The double standard of "it's fine for women but not right for men" is obvious and even openly acknowledged, but it's still there.
I can't help but wonder whether they'd still be OK dancing with me as a follow if I told them I liked men (but wasn't interested in them, specifically). That having been said, I have taught a straight crush to dance, and he was fine with it, even though he knew I had a bit of a thing for him.

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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQ Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Rinsaikeru » Mon May 04, 2009 5:12 am UTC

I tend to follow but also lead a little--I know in the toronto swing scene there are lots of leads who also occasionally follow (particularly if there are too many leads). It's not much of a big deal in that regard.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQ Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Shivahn » Tue May 05, 2009 8:11 am UTC

I just thought I'd share a couple things that happened to me over the past few days. Note that I'm really tired, so my grammar may not be at its best.

It's ok to semi-rant here, right? Especially given that it's related to the thread?

EDIT: Oh, and this rant is full of questioning angst. It also examines views forced into me by society, I hope they don't remind anyone of anything painful. That is not my intent, it's more a complaint of how I'm dealing with huge issues now that other people have gone through and may not want to remember.

Double edit: Crap, xkcd doesn't let you nest spoilers? The first and third are part of a continuous story, the second is a slightly unrelated set of feelings.

Spoiler:
Anyway, I have a huge essay due tomorrow. I finished writing it a few minutes ago. When I was reading up for it the other night, I was in my pajamas in the main room of my apartment. One of my apartmentmates came in with some friends, and I immediately left the room, partially because I don't like being there when other people are in the apartment (I'm a bit of a recluse). But the relevant part is that I was also somewhat ashamed that they'd seen me in my pajamas. Like, real men don't wear those, you know? It's gay, or effeminate, or something. I felt like people seeing me like that made me weak. And as I said, shame. I don't know if it was because I was wearing something that after twenty some years of conditioning I felt showed weakness, or if it was because I feel that they belie my somewhat non-cisgendered inner nature, which I don't like exposed to people I barely know. Either way, feeling sick to myself because people saw me as I see myself, at least sometimes, is a terrible feeling. I don't know if I'm ashamed at what I feel or what I appear as, but either way I hate it. I can't even really properly explore myself as society as a whole will come crashing down on me the moment I appear less than a secure cisgendered heterosexual. I don't fully know if that's true or not, but it's messed up that I'm conditioned so heavily that I feel that way. And I have a feeling it basically is true. Also fuck you Firefox, cisgendered is so a word.

Hmm, I'd intended to keep my sex a secret, but it looks like I can't, given the nature of the story. Damn.

It's a somewhat different rant that I'm very confused. I still identify with "men" somewhat. That is to say, comments such as "men are X" make me feel attacked personally, though I know that that's not their intent. This complaint isn't about the comments as themselves, though, it's about my confusion at feeling like they target me. I'm scarcely a man anyway, and at times I hate that I'm not female. I had my first realization last night that maybe it's not that I sometimes want to be a girl, but that I am a girl. At least transiently...

Spoilered for generally unrelated thoughts that came during edit:
Spoiler:
Incidentally, that brought me peace. It's hard to describe how that simple thought, that perhaps I don't just want to be female, but am female brought me a feeling of tranquility. Oh, how I wish I could feel that way all the time... I thought I'd known that before, what being transgendered truly entailed, but clearly I didn't. The thought was there, but I didn't feel it, or believe it, until last night. And unless my memory's failed me, it brought with it a temporary peace.


Continue with my angst:

Spoiler:
So why do comments about men make me notice them at all? Why can't I stop identifying with any group altogether? I doubt I'm a man, at least in any meaningful social use of the term (and screw you, biology), but I don't feel I'd be accepted as anything else either. Or that I identify as anything else. I feel like.... well, confused. If I'm feeling attacked by comments aimed at some nebulous "men", does that mean I identify with them? Even though I hate that aspect of myself? Can I even know that, though, or am I just still responding to the constant programming I've been given, "you're a man, not a woman, you're a boy, not a girl" repeatedly and forcefully throughout my entire life? How much of my identity is really me, and how much is what I've been told I am so constantly that I can't distinguish myself from some monolithic ideal version of some aspect of me that was forced upon me by a single gene? I wish I'd been a girl, I hate that I'm not. SO WHY DO I CARE ABOUT COMMENTS DIRECTED AT MEN? If I AM a man, then I hate it. Hate Hate Hate. And I hate that I've been conditioned so constantly, so forcefully, that I can't get that thought out of my head. "You're a man, that's all you'll ever be". No, clearly I'm NOT a man. I hate my programming. I hate the little thoughts that aren't mine, but are some nebulous and archaic society's, yet at every step along my path tell me I'm wrong. That my existence is impossible. That I'm just crazy. That I'm wrong for being... well, that I'm wrong simply for being.

Every time I post in this thread I realize it needs another smiley. This time it's lacking a crying one.

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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQ Thread - Queer Support!

Postby abitha » Tue May 05, 2009 11:47 am UTC

Shivahn wrote:It's ok to semi-rant here, right? Especially given that it's related to the thread?


Dude, that's exactly what the thread is for. I don't have much else to say, except sorry things are tough for you right now. I'm not trans or anything, but comments like "all men/women are X" annoy the hell out of me too - i mean, at least I don't have to deal with the whole "wait, does that apply to me or not?" issue, but comments like that just reinforce a binary attitude that is frequently quite damaging to both sexes, in that it negatively colours the way they view themselves and each other. It would be so much easier for people to sort out whatever gender issues they have (whether that's actually being trans, or just being unclear about how they want to express and interpret their cis-gender) if we could get away from that whole "men are like this... women are like that" dichotomy.

Oh, also, there is a crying smiley - it's second row down, on the far right. I hope you won't be needing it too much, but at least you'll know it's there!

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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQ Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Van » Tue May 05, 2009 2:36 pm UTC

Yeah. I really know what you mean about a the feeling of tranquility. The day after I said to myself "I'm going to do something about this. no matter what.", I actually had people asking me if I was on drugs, because my personality did a complete 180. It's.. hm.. actually, 6 months to the day since then, and I still get random comments about how much I've changed.

As for being trans, well. The way I can most easily describe it is: Being transgendered is knowing something so strongly that you're willing to tell society and logic to sit down, shut up, and drink their goddamn tea.

Semi-related bitchy tangent about people/perception. I go running in the neighborhoods nearby fairly often, and it's not too uncommon for me to see other people, so this keeps happening, and it keeps really, really getting to me. I'm just minding my business, jogging down the sidewalk, and I come up on a woman walking somewhere. She hears me, looks back, and crosses the street. Now, I'm not a small person by any means, and I don't fault them for putting their safety first, but.. it really ruins my day. I've never been in a fight, never been on either side of a punch, and being large and imposing is more or less the polar opposite of how I'd like to be perceived. Thanks a lot, bones and/or genetics!
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You say that you disapprove of sex before marriage, but you are fucking that idiot. (Ad hominem.)
You say that you disapprove of sex outside of marriage, but you are fucking your mom. (Ad mominem.)

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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQ Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Jessica » Tue May 05, 2009 5:20 pm UTC

*hugs*
Just because you get annoyed at "all men..." statements doesn't mean you're male. It's hard to break free of the concept that society is a duality. And that because some guy looked at your penis when you were born and said "I proclaim you male", doesn't mean anything at all to what you really are. Your subconscious sex, your gender expression... those are yours. And you can express them however you want. And it's not wrong if your subconscious sex is female, or your gender expression is feminine. It's up to you.

I've been reading "whipping girl" by Julia Serano recently, and it's really been interesting. Things like looking at how the media portrays trans people, either as the evil deceiver, or the pitiful fake... or talking about subconscious sex, gender expression, gender identity as different things, or trying to fight against oppositional sexism, as opposed to specifically homophobia, or transphobia, biphobia etc. Very interesting read. I'm gonna probably have to read it again when I'm done to synthesize the ideas into my own understanding.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQ Thread - Queer Support!

Postby semicharmed » Tue May 05, 2009 6:07 pm UTC

Van wrote:Semi-related bitchy tangent about people/perception. I go running in the neighborhoods nearby fairly often, and it's not too uncommon for me to see other people, so this keeps happening, and it keeps really, really getting to me. I'm just minding my business, jogging down the sidewalk, and I come up on a woman walking somewhere. She hears me, looks back, and crosses the street. Now, I'm not a small person by any means, and I don't fault them for putting their safety first, but.. it really ruins my day. I've never been in a fight, never been on either side of a punch, and being large and imposing is more or less the polar opposite of how I'd like to be perceived. Thanks a lot, bones and/or genetics!


I'll offer you this: I often walk around my campus or to the houses of friends who live off campus after dark. I go to a fairly large school in one of the more dangerous cities in the country, with a fair amount of crime reported to the campus police. But I feel safe here - I can't think of a situation where I've ever seriously felt unsafe when I was alone and somewhere after dark, even in instances where I probably shouldn't have been. And I'm confident in my abilty to do some damage to anyone trying to assault me, physical or otherwise. But if I'm walking alone, especially after dark, I will notice myself tensing up/getting nervous if I hear footsteps. I don't like the reaction, because it's more instinctive than anything. And although I don't usually end up crossing the street, I can understand people that do.
All I can say is don't force eye contact, maybe give a polite nod/smile combination and keep running. If you're running around the same area at around the same often enough, I know I'd come to think of you as "person in green shorts who goes running while I walk my dog" and not as a potential threat. And for anyone who doesn't, you never know why they react the way they do - maybe you remind them of someone they'd rather not be reminded of for any reason. Maybe they were run over by a jogger once... just try to keep reminding yourself it's not personal.

I am, btw, a girl on the smaller end of things. Never been on the either side of a punch, but I've quite frequently been told that I'm perceived as intimidating. And I'm quite confident that I could inflict some serious damage on anyone who tried to mess with me.

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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQ Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Shivahn » Tue May 05, 2009 6:21 pm UTC

abitha wrote:(whether that's actually being trans, or just being unclear about how they want to express and interpret their cis-gender)

Oh, also, there is a crying smiley - it's second row down, on the far right. I hope you won't be needing it too much, but at least you'll know it's there!


Van wrote:Yeah. I really know what you mean about a the feeling of tranquility. The day after I said to myself "I'm going to do something about this. no matter what.", I actually had people asking me if I was on drugs, because my personality did a complete 180. It's.. hm.. actually, 6 months to the day since then, and I still get random comments about how much I've changed.

As for being trans, well. The way I can most easily describe it is: Being transgendered is knowing something so strongly that you're willing to tell society and logic to sit down, shut up, and drink their goddamn tea.


Well, I'm not cisgendered. At least, that's very unlikely. I don't think many cisgendered people have cried over their birth sex. I'm more questioning how often and how far I am transgendered. And logic doesn't to have shut up, but society does.

I feel weird about that tranquil feeling because it hasn't returned. I think it was a momentary epiphany. If I can just figure out how to reinduce it... This of course factors into my doubts all over again ><. Whee, here we go.

Jessica wrote:*hugs*
Just because you get annoyed at "all men..." statements doesn't mean you're male. It's hard to break free of the concept that society is a duality. And that because some guy looked at your penis when you were born and said "I proclaim you male", doesn't mean anything at all to what you really are. Your subconscious sex, your gender expression... those are yours. And you can express them however you want. And it's not wrong if your subconscious sex is female, or your gender expression is feminine. It's up to you.

I've been reading "whipping girl" by Julia Serano recently, and it's really been interesting. Things like looking at how the media portrays trans people, either as the evil deceiver, or the pitiful fake... or talking about subconscious sex, gender expression, gender identity as different things, or trying to fight against oppositional sexism, as opposed to specifically homophobia, or transphobia, biphobia etc. Very interesting read. I'm gonna probably have to read it again when I'm done to synthesize the ideas into my own understanding.


*hug* Thank you so much. I know, intellectually, that you're right. That my birth has little impact on my identity. I'm just having trouble reconciling that with my visceral feelings, which are both that I'm not quite cis and that that's wrong, or impossible, or faked. I know it's not wrong, I just can't always *feel* that it's not wrong. Programming will do that to you.

And I intend to look at that book more once I get back from class. It looks like something that could be helpful, or at the very least interesting. Thank you.

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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQ Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Jessica » Tue May 05, 2009 7:34 pm UTC

Not sure how helpful it'll be if you're just starting out, but it's interesting.

Hell, there's the old standby my gender workbook, if you want.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQ Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Osha » Tue May 05, 2009 8:55 pm UTC

OK, I'm a bit late but I still want to pitch in!
Shivahn wrote:... That my birth has little impact on my identity. I'm just having trouble reconciling that with my visceral feelings, which are both that I'm not quite cis and that that's wrong, or impossible, or faked. I know it's not wrong, I just can't always *feel* that it's not wrong. Programming will do that to you.
I struggled with these sorts of feelings for years and years. I still do. I'm still tempted to respond to "all men..." comments with "But I'm a man and...", still sometimes feel like I always was and always will be a man, still think in "guy mode" sometimes, still unsure if I have any idea actually how to be a woman. Despite all that, I am still massively happier than I was before... and y'know... if I did for whatever reason decide to stop... all I'd have to do is stop taking pills, I'm far from the point of no return physically, emotionally I'm much past it, but it's still reassuring to think if everything started feeling horribly wrong, I could go back. You said you had a moment of tranquility. When I finally decided I was a woman, and damn the world, and I was going to go through with it... well I wasn't tranquil, but I sure was energetic, and ran around the house restlessly for hours! When I started on HRT my coworker actually /did/ ask if I was high. :o
I guess what I'm saying is... don't be afraid to experiment, to find what makes you happy, you can always change your mind.
*hugs*

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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQ Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Shivahn » Tue May 05, 2009 9:28 pm UTC

Jessica wrote:Not sure how helpful it'll be if you're just starting out, but it's interesting.

Hell, there's the old standby my gender workbook, if you want.


Too late :P
Yay for university bookstores and impulses!

Osha wrote:I guess what I'm saying is... don't be afraid to experiment, to find what makes you happy, you can always change your mind.
*hugs*

*hug* to you too. I'm still in a really questioning state, and struggling with thoughts that swing back and forth to extremes, but every once in a while I get a tranquil feeling. I'm going to do my best to live so that I feel like that as often as possible.

Thanks to everyone, this thread is the best thing that's happened on the fora. Yay thread!

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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQ Thread - Queer Support!

Postby steewi » Wed May 06, 2009 12:43 am UTC

Van wrote:Yeah. I really know what you mean about a the feeling of tranquility. The day after I said to myself "I'm going to do something about this. no matter what.", I actually had people asking me if I was on drugs, because my personality did a complete 180. It's.. hm.. actually, 6 months to the day since then, and I still get random comments about how much I've changed.

As for being trans, well. The way I can most easily describe it is: Being transgendered is knowing something so strongly that you're willing to tell society and logic to sit down, shut up, and drink their goddamn tea.


Your writing here makes me think of a movie called Head On about an unwillingly gay Greek-Aussie. His friend is transgender and during the movie decides finally to go to the Greek club as a woman, and not take any of their crap over it. Her attitude makes them not beat her up over it. They don't completely accept it, but they were then willing to sit down, shut up and drink their tea, because she forced the issue instead of hiding it.

Now if only I could take that advice on myself. Not with transgender, but close enough.

I'm in one of those points at the moment where I kind of just want to go out to a club and attract guys, just to prove that I can. It's actually other things that are putting the pressure on me, but this is the way it's manifesting. I've been single for nearly four years, and haven't had any since never. I know it's not true, but I feel unattractive.

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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQ Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Amarantha » Wed May 06, 2009 2:02 am UTC

I read an article in the paper about a judge who ruled that a 17yo transboy could have his breasts removed. Every time the article quoted the judge, she was referring to the boy as "he". But whenever the article referred to him directly, they said "she". I used to respect that paper, but I've been reading some questionable things in there lately :(

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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQ Thread - Queer Support!

Postby natraj » Wed May 06, 2009 2:08 am UTC

Urk, I hate when newspapers do that. And it happens so very often. :|
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I'll answer your impatient questions. Still --
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The cards and stars that tumble as they will.

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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQ Thread - Queer Support!

Postby TheSkyMovesSideways » Wed May 06, 2009 2:59 am UTC

Amarantha wrote:Every time the article quoted the judge, she was referring to the boy as "he". But whenever the article referred to him directly, they said "she". I used to respect that paper, but I've been reading some questionable things in there lately :(

Can you blame them though, for either not knowing which pronouns to use, or for choosing to use the pronouns which would avoid confusion among their readers? (If it was a choice to avoid confusion, then a better approach would probably have been to use male pronouns and explain the reason for their use at the start of the article.)

In either case, it would probably be more constructive to write a letter to the editor than to complain on an internet forum. :wink:

The article, for anyone interested:
http://www.theage.com.au/national/court ... ml?page=-1
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQ Thread - Queer Support!

Postby H.E.L.e.N. » Wed May 06, 2009 3:11 am UTC

TheSkyMovesSideways wrote:Can you blame them though, for either not knowing which pronouns to use, or for choosing to use the pronouns which would avoid confusion among their readers?


Yes! Current press style guidelines say to use the right pronouns. So they're doing it double wrong! (And you can totally blame newswriters for "not knowing"! They're supposed to look it up!)

(Ok, the American press guidelines that I'm familiar with. But if we can do it, so can they.)

It's not perfect, but:
the Associated Press Stylebook wrote:sex changes
Use the pronoun preferred by the individuals who have acquired the physical characteristics of the opposite sex or present themselves in a way that does not correspond with their sex at birth.
If that preference is not expressed, use the pronoun consistent with the way the individuals live publicly.

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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQ Thread - Queer Support!

Postby TheSkyMovesSideways » Wed May 06, 2009 3:37 am UTC

Interesting! I had no idea journalists were so organised! :)
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I just figured I'd be on the other side.
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