Individual balance

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twinsen
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Individual balance

Postby twinsen » Tue Mar 10, 2015 11:20 pm UTC

Since the science guys, dont think this is real science, and censor it, I will have to discuss with you the topics that I find iteresting:

How can species balance its individual count with the environment?

We know what happens when mamals end up on island with no predators on it.
Daddy Rabbit: "Lets go eat"
Mommy Rabbit: "Ok"
10 min later:
Daddy Rabbit: "Lets make little rabbits"
Mommy Rabbit:"Ok".
Repeat , till the grass area is over.
Result:
(*.*) + (*.*) = (*.*)(*.*)(*.*)(*.*)(*.*)(*.*)(*.*)(*.*)(*.*)(*.*)(*.*)(*.*)(*.*)(*.*)(*.*)(*.*)(*.*)(*.*)(*.*)(*.*)(*.*)(*.*)(*.*)(*.*)(*.*)(*.*)(*.*)

With a predators around:
Daddy Rabbit: "That eagle just took little Timmy away"
Mommy Rabbit: "Lets make another one".

(*.*) + (*.*) = (*.*)(*.*)


And predators count is basicly balanced by rabbits count.

(*.*) (*.*) (*.*) (*.*) = ( \ / )
(*.*) (*.*) (*.*) (*.*) (*.*) (*.*) (*.*) (*.*) (*.*) (*.*) (*.*) (*.*) = ( \ / )( \ / )( \ / )


So , we can have:
predators: ( \ / )( \ / )( \ / )
mamals(that eat grass):(*.*) (*.*) (*.*) (*.*) (*.*) (*.*) (*.*) (*.*) (*.*) (*.*) (*.*) (*.*)
environment resourses ( grass not eaten, becouse we have 12 not 120 rabbits): /\ /\ /\ /\ /\ /\

I am having the idea, what the hell is going on with humans, using this model:

predators : NONE
humans:
environment: NONE

something is not right, becouse we still have environment, so what is the predator in this case ?

predators: CANCER, WAR, INFECTIONS, STARVATION
HUMANS:
environment: [] [] [] [] [] [] []

So after all, we should ask ourselvs two questions:

1. Can the human race be healthy, without sickness, without cancer, without wars?
2. Where did thouse "predators" came from? Is this developing itself after we reach some level of population, so it can fall, or it is created before, so we never reach it?

You dont have to be much into science. I will ask you just , if you have to say something say it - dont put links to wikipedia main page, as a sourse of information.
Lets keep the things as direct conversation as possible.

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Re: Individual balance

Postby Izawwlgood » Tue Mar 10, 2015 11:51 pm UTC

This isn't science, this is basically gibberish stream of consciousness. But;

1. Can the human race be healthy, without sickness, without cancer, without wars?

Yes.
2. Where did thouse "predators" came from? Is this developing itself after we reach some level of population, so it can fall, or it is created before, so we never reach it?
The above issues?
Sickness comes from pathogens and failures of human organ systems.
Cancer comes from the same.
Wars come from human struggle.

Are they coming from human population milestones? No. Are they increased at human population milestones? Maybe.
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Re: Individual balance

Postby Angua » Wed Mar 11, 2015 12:06 am UTC

I'd just like ot point out that contrary to popular naturopath belief, cancer is something that happens in the wild too. It's not just a disease of modern man (though some of the stuff we do does increase your chance of getting it).

Also, as you seem to have it in a different category to infection, but for reason don't want to include other diseases (you know, like diabetes and cardivascular disease):
A cancer that acts like an infection
An infection that acts like a cancer.
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Re: Individual balance

Postby gmalivuk » Wed Mar 11, 2015 12:46 am UTC

My favorite tidbit from the "cancer is a modern anthropogenic disease" crowd is the fact that, quite on the contrary from the "sharks don't get cancer" claim used to sell shark cartilage as a miracle drug, sharks do get cancer, in their cartilage.

Infectious disease and murder and coalitional violence (such as war) are also not human-only afflictions.
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Re: Individual balance

Postby BlackSails » Wed Mar 11, 2015 1:55 am UTC

(sigmoid) Diverticulitis is a disease of modern humans only (no known cases pre-industrial revolution, either by records or preserved anatomic specimens).

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Re: Individual balance

Postby gmalivuk » Wed Mar 11, 2015 1:58 am UTC

Well there you go then.

That is how God is punishing us for our fall from Grace.
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Re: Individual balance

Postby BlackSails » Wed Mar 11, 2015 2:09 am UTC

Some of us anyway.

For example, diverticulitis is basically non-existent in india. Its mainly a punishment of our decadent imperialist western nations

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Re: Individual balance

Postby PolakoVoador » Wed Mar 11, 2015 2:31 am UTC

Well then,

That is how Brahma is punishing us heathens

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Re: Individual balance

Postby SecondTalon » Wed Mar 11, 2015 5:38 am UTC

gmalivuk wrote:Well there you go then.

That is how God is punishing us for our fall from Grace.

No, I'm pretty sure it's this thread.

Since the science guys, dont think this is real science, and censor it, I will have to discuss with you the topics that I find iteresting:


Okay, where's your peer reviewed studies? If none, do you have a testable hypothesis?
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Re: Individual balance

Postby EMTP » Wed Mar 11, 2015 5:39 am UTC

There were probably very few hemorrhoids prior to the invention of chairs.
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Re: Individual balance

Postby twinsen » Wed Mar 11, 2015 8:50 am UTC

Angua wrote:I'd just like ot point out that contrary to popular naturopath belief, cancer is something that happens in the wild too. It's not just a disease of modern man (though some of the stuff we do does increase your chance of getting it).

Also, as you seem to have it in a different category to infection, but for reason don't want to include other diseases (you know, like diabetes and cardivascular disease):
A cancer that acts like an infection
An infection that acts like a cancer.


I call cancer any abnormall cells from any organism, that are life threatening, im not sure its the right approach thou...

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Re: Individual balance

Postby twinsen » Wed Mar 11, 2015 8:58 am UTC

SecondTalon wrote:
gmalivuk wrote:Well there you go then.

That is how God is punishing us for our fall from Grace.

No, I'm pretty sure it's this thread.

Since the science guys, dont think this is real science, and censor it, I will have to discuss with you the topics that I find iteresting:


Okay, where's your peer reviewed studies? If none, do you have a testable hypothesis?


I have hypothesis, I dont know if its testable.

Is it testable hypothesis, that if I make you drink 7 liters of water , you will die?

If testable means, that it can be tested in general - then yes, I have one.
If testable means, that it can be tested, but you cant kill people in the process - no, I have not.

Edit: If I can make analogy to the results for animals, this is not hypothesis, its a theory...
I am still wondering how is this going to work for humans, lets talk about it :)

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Re: Individual balance

Postby Izawwlgood » Wed Mar 11, 2015 11:44 am UTC

twinsen wrote:Is it testable hypothesis, that if I make you drink 7 liters of water , you will die?
Are you asking if we know for certain that hyponatremia is a thing, because I assure you, we do.

twinsen wrote:Edit: If I can make analogy to the results for animals, this is not hypothesis, its a theory...
And your theory is...?
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Re: Individual balance

Postby PolakoVoador » Wed Mar 11, 2015 12:31 pm UTC

And what does drinking 7 liters of water have to do with anything previously said in this thread?

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Re: Individual balance

Postby SecondTalon » Wed Mar 11, 2015 1:29 pm UTC

twinsen wrote:Is it testable hypothesis, that if I make you drink 7 liters of water , you will die?


Yes. Given that humans have already tested that exact hypothesis (Drinking X amounts of water in Y amount of time) and have a pretty good handle on how much water is lethal, that particular one is not what I would call a sensible or ethical hypothesis, but it is a hypothesis.

I'm assuming that was a example hypothesis, and that your actual one is something most will consider unethical as it requires human death. I would now like to hear that hypothesis as, given that humans are assholes, it's probably been tested already.
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Re: Individual balance

Postby twinsen » Wed Mar 11, 2015 2:30 pm UTC

SecondTalon wrote:
twinsen wrote:Is it testable hypothesis, that if I make you drink 7 liters of water , you will die?


Yes. Given that humans have already tested that exact hypothesis (Drinking X amounts of water in Y amount of time) and have a pretty good handle on how much water is lethal, that particular one is not what I would call a sensible or ethical hypothesis, but it is a hypothesis.

I'm assuming that was a example hypothesis, and that your actual one is something most will consider unethical as it requires human death. I would now like to hear that hypothesis as, given that humans are assholes, it's probably been tested already.


Yes, my hypothesis, is that removing cancer, wars , infections and ... similar stuff that is bad for humans from the picture...
will wipe us all.

And I dont think it was the best idea to test it, so... I decided to start discussion about it. Lets see what people think :)
Will it be benefitial for use , if we remove that problems.

(Keep in mind, will it be "good" to remove them. Not "is it possible")

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Re: Individual balance

Postby Izawwlgood » Wed Mar 11, 2015 2:56 pm UTC

twinsen wrote:Yes, my hypothesis, is that removing cancer, wars , infections and ... similar stuff that is bad for humans from the picture...
will wipe us all.
I think this is an incredibly ignorant perspective to hold. You know what else fits your bill? The polio vaccine. Antibiotics. Peace.

The best thing for humanity is ensuring that we don't lose individuals to 'preventative issues'. I think 'everything that isn't a freak accident' is, or should be, a 'preventable issue'.
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Re: Individual balance

Postby SecondTalon » Wed Mar 11, 2015 4:54 pm UTC

twinsen wrote:
SecondTalon wrote:
twinsen wrote:Is it testable hypothesis, that if I make you drink 7 liters of water , you will die?


Yes. Given that humans have already tested that exact hypothesis (Drinking X amounts of water in Y amount of time) and have a pretty good handle on how much water is lethal, that particular one is not what I would call a sensible or ethical hypothesis, but it is a hypothesis.

I'm assuming that was a example hypothesis, and that your actual one is something most will consider unethical as it requires human death. I would now like to hear that hypothesis as, given that humans are assholes, it's probably been tested already.


Yes, my hypothesis, is that removing cancer, wars , infections and ... similar stuff that is bad for humans from the picture...
will wipe us all.

And I dont think it was the best idea to test it, so... I decided to start discussion about it. Lets see what people think :)
Will it be benefitial for use , if we remove that problems.

(Keep in mind, will it be "good" to remove them. Not "is it possible")


If I'm understanding your supposition correctly (and with my reading of your other posts) :

You are forwarding the notion that without disease killing off the weakest of the species, without war killing off the ...?... of the species, without parasites, infections and so on, the line of humans will die.

That without constant death affecting the individuals, the species as a whole will cease for some unspecified reason.

....

You'll pardon my incredulity at this idea, as it sounds like you're suggesting the solution to not bleeding to death is multiple, untreated stab wounds. So, may I ask why you believe humans require this constant parade of death, the purpose it serves, what it is you believe will end the species if we stop infections, cancer, disease, war, starvation, etc?
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Re: Individual balance

Postby PolakoVoador » Wed Mar 11, 2015 5:11 pm UTC

twinsen wrote:So after all, we should ask ourselvs two questions:

1. Can the human race be healthy, without sickness, without cancer, without wars?
2. Where did thouse "predators" came from? Is this developing itself after we reach some level of population, so it can fall, or it is created before, so we never reach it?

ST, I think here lies your answer (kind of), emphasis mine. They believe that since there is still environment around (??), it's obvius that something is keeping the humans in check, otherwise we would have already turned the Earth into a dead wasteland, or something. By the bolded part, they seem to be hinting at something that's controlling the fate of the humans. Considering his other thread, I think we can guess who that something may be.

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Re: Individual balance

Postby SecondTalon » Wed Mar 11, 2015 5:28 pm UTC

Or twinsen doesn't exactly understand what "Apex predator omnivore with enough intelligence to cultivate an enormous stockpile of food along with preservation techniques to keep it edible for ever increasing lengths of time" means.


Not that I exactly do either, but I know that's something that's pretty unique to humans. We don't just eat everything that won't kill us, we grow more of it, be it meat or plant (also not exactly unique but the next bit is), and do things to it so the food harvested today can be eaten a decade later.
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Re: Individual balance

Postby Yablo » Wed Mar 11, 2015 5:48 pm UTC

And so it was written: "Whosoever shall create the Twinkie shall conquer the galaxy."
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Re: Individual balance

Postby PeteP » Wed Mar 11, 2015 6:25 pm UTC

SecondTalon wrote:Or twinsen doesn't exactly understand what "Apex predator omnivore with enough intelligence to cultivate an enormous stockpile of food along with preservation techniques to keep it edible for ever increasing lengths of time" means.


Not that I exactly do either, but I know that's something that's pretty unique to humans. We don't just eat everything that won't kill us, we grow more of it, be it meat or plant (also not exactly unique but the next bit is), and do things to it so the food harvested today can be eaten a decade later.

I think apex predator is defined over the trophic level, we eat to many plants to be one.

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Re: Individual balance

Postby Azrael » Wed Mar 11, 2015 6:41 pm UTC

SecondTalon wrote:
Yes, my hypothesis, is that removing cancer, wars , infections and ... similar stuff that is bad for humans from the picture...
will wipe us all.
If I'm understanding your supposition correctly (and with my reading of your other posts) :

You are forwarding the notion that without disease killing off the weakest of the species, without war killing off the ...?... of the species, without parasites, infections and so on, the line of humans will die.

That without constant death affecting the individuals, the species as a whole will cease for some unspecified reason.

What he's utterly failing to connect between his original post and subsequent communications is that his question is really more along the lines of:

"Without the population limitation factors humans currently experience (cancer, war, famine, etc) would the unburdened population growth outpace it's (or the environment's) ability to adapt? And could that failure to adapt adequately result in a tipping point leading to a societal or population level collapse?"

Alternatively: "If we have world peace and drastically improve longevity what's the next most prevent set of population controls? Would the feedback cycle damp the oscillations or amplify the growth? Could we see an extinction level (or similar) event come from too slow a feedback cycle?"

It's actually an interesting set of hypotheticals when you bother to think through your question well enough to express it.

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Re: Individual balance

Postby JudeMorrigan » Wed Mar 11, 2015 6:53 pm UTC

1. No, seriously. Your argument would be better served with more differential equations and rather fewer emoticons.
2. Did you read the articles on carrying capacity and the Lotka-Volterra equation that were linked to you in your thread in the science forum?
3. Allow me to add the following link to your reading list:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Projection ... ion_growth

The short version is that if you're worried about human population growth, your best bets are to support women's rights and freely available birth control.

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Re: Individual balance

Postby Neil_Boekend » Tue Apr 07, 2015 11:45 am UTC

I rather like the emoticons, although they do not provide the required depth.
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Re: Individual balance

Postby BlitzGirl » Tue Apr 07, 2015 12:07 pm UTC

Clearly the answer is emoticons that go deeper.

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Re: Individual balance

Postby Neil_Boekend » Tue Apr 07, 2015 12:11 pm UTC

Beware of the elephants. They get moody if you try to dig through them.
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Re: Individual balance

Postby Tyndmyr » Tue Apr 07, 2015 7:51 pm UTC

twinsen wrote:Since the magic that we just don't understand yet guys, dont think thith is real magic that we just don't understand yet, and censor it, we will have to discuss with you the topics that we find iteresting:

How can species balance its individual count with the environment?

We know what happens when mamals end up on island with no predators on it.
Daddy Rabbit: "Lets go eat"
Mommy Rabbit: "Ok"
10 min later:
Daddy Rabbit: "Lets make little rabbits"
Mommy Rabbit:"Ok".
Repeat , till the grass area is over.
Result:
(*.*) + (*.*) = (*.*)(*.*)(*.*)(*.*)(*.*)(*.*)(*.*)(*.*)(*.*)(*.*)(*.*)(*.*)(*.*)(*.*)(*.*)(*.*)(*.*)(*.*)(*.*)(*.*)(*.*)(*.*)(*.*)(*.*)(*.*)(*.*)(*.*)

With a predators around:
Daddy Rabbit: "That eagle just took little Timmy away"
Mommy Rabbit: "Lets make another one".

(*.*) + (*.*) = (*.*)(*.*)


And predators count is basicly balanced by rabbits count.

(*.*) (*.*) (*.*) (*.*) = ( \ / )
(*.*) (*.*) (*.*) (*.*) (*.*) (*.*) (*.*) (*.*) (*.*) (*.*) (*.*) (*.*) = ( \ / )( \ / )( \ / )


See, here is where you went off the rails. You don't see a perfect balance in nature. You see a boom/bust cycle as the rabbits reproduce to capacity of the area(and beyond, somewhat), and foxes population explodes as their prey does. The fox boom/bust cycle lags behind the rabbits a bit, but is pretty solidly linked to them.

The idea that the balance of nature is a happy, static thing is kind of a myth.

So , we can have:
predators: ( \ / )( \ / )( \ / )
mamals(that eat grass):(*.*) (*.*) (*.*) (*.*) (*.*) (*.*) (*.*) (*.*) (*.*) (*.*) (*.*) (*.*)
environment resourses ( grass not eaten, becouse we have 12 not 120 rabbits): /\ /\ /\ /\ /\ /\

we are having the idea, what the hell is going on with humans, using thith model:

predators : NONE
humans:
environment: NONE


Soo....we keep reproducing until we max out our environement, or somewhat beyond, and then we die off. Cheers.

The only real difference is that we invented birth control and education to actively forstall this.

something is cup-and-plate, becouse we still have environment, so what is the predator in thith case ?


We really don't. We have things that bother us, but we do not have predators per se.

1. Can the human race be healthy, without sickness, without cancer, without wars?


Yes. Or at least, something sort of like the human race. We're not very close to that now, though, I wouldn't worry overly much about that.

2. Where did thouse "predators" came from? Is thith developing itself after we reach some level of population, so it can fall, or it is created before, so we never reach it?


They don't appear, they're just always here. Nature isn't happy and peaceful and loving. In nature you get sick. You die. You get cancer. You fight to survive until you eventually fail. Removing these things is essentially only possible by overcoming nature.

You dont have to be much into magic that we just don't understand yet. we will ask you just , if you have to say something say it - dont put links to wikipedia main page, as a sourse of information.
Lets keep the thingth as direct conversation as possible.


I assure you, I'm pretty into science, and this ain't science. This is some sort of nature-worshipping nonsense that isn't founded in actual science.

twinsen wrote:Yes, our hypothesis, is that removing cancer, wars , infections and ... similar stuff that is bad for humans from the picture...
will wipe us all.

And we dont think it was the best idea to test it, so... we decided to start discussion about it. Lets see what people think :)
Will it be benefitial for use , if we remove that problems.

(Keep in mind, will it be "good" to remove them. Not "is it possible")


First, you don't have a way to test that.

Second, that's a terrible hypothesis. There's not only no logical mechanism by which your proposed result is derived from your actions, you don't know what those actions would be, and the things you posit are wildly varied and way beyond a reasonable modern capability. Generally, one tries to make a casually reasonably hypothesis, and then you want to test it thoroughly. See also, the jellybean/acne comic strip.

Third, we've solved some types of disease, and that has not gotten us closer to being all wiped out.

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Re: Individual balance

Postby suffer-cait » Tue Apr 07, 2015 9:29 pm UTC

you're saying you don't believe in the magic?
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