Madness discussion

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Re: Madness discussion

Postby Azrael » Wed Apr 02, 2014 10:09 pm UTC

Belial wrote:That didn't happen, and it's too late to do anything (useful) about it.

But couldn't we lock the thread and make them wander about, posting and integrati... oh.

Shit. Never mind.

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Re: Madness discussion

Postby Belial » Wed Apr 02, 2014 10:18 pm UTC

I'm just noticing as I vaguely surveil the time-thread these past couple days that there's an awful lot of, like..."here are pictures of my trip to the zoo, let's talk about how I did on my job interview". That sort of stuff. The sort of stuff that is for all intents and purposes entirely off topic, and goes in the various social and picture threads in General. I understand why you'd only want to post that stuff for other Timers nowadays, because they're the people you know and want to share with. So it goes.
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Re: Madness discussion

Postby Adam H » Wed Apr 02, 2014 10:21 pm UTC

I personally feel like there would be value in having a separate thread where we could actually talk about the Time comic without having those posts be swallowed by dozens of "molpy this and chirp that". The existing thread could be renamed something like "OTT" and moved to General or Forum Games.

Meh, whatever.
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Re: Madness discussion

Postby ChronosDragon » Wed Apr 02, 2014 10:29 pm UTC

Adam H wrote:I personally feel like there would be value in having a separate thread where we could actually talk about the Time comic without having those posts be swallowed by dozens of "molpy this and chirp that". The existing thread could be renamed something like "OTT" and moved to General or Forum Games.

Meh, whatever.


I, for one, would not be opposed to this. The thread has indeed surpassed its original intent, and it seems perfectly reasonable from a moderation standpoint to organize in such a way. I'm not sure how the rest of the community would react to that, though.
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Re: Madness discussion

Postby Azrael » Wed Apr 02, 2014 10:31 pm UTC

We're all ears.

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Re: Madness discussion

Postby yappobiscuits » Wed Apr 02, 2014 10:37 pm UTC

Belial wrote:I'm just noticing as I vaguely surveil the time-thread these past couple days that there's an awful lot of, like..."here are pictures of my trip to the zoo, let's talk about how I did on my job interview". That sort of stuff. The sort of stuff that is for all intents and purposes entirely off topic, and goes in the various social and picture threads in General. I understand why you'd only want to post that stuff for other Timers nowadays, because they're the people you know and want to share with. So it goes.

Yeah, as you say that comes from it having become its own community. I personally share off-topic stuff there (though I try to avoid doing it too much) only because it's like catching up with friends. I know it would theoretically be more on-topic elsewhere, but yeah. That. Although, we also have our own facebook group where we can share more off-topic things, but not everyone is on facebook so we try to keep as much as we can to the thread.
ChronosDragon wrote:
Adam H wrote:I personally feel like there would be value in having a separate thread where we could actually talk about the Time comic without having those posts be swallowed by dozens of "molpy this and chirp that". The existing thread could be renamed something like "OTT" and moved to General or Forum Games.

Meh, whatever.


I, for one, would not be opposed to this. The thread has indeed surpassed its original intent, and it seems perfectly reasonable from a moderation standpoint to organize in such a way. I'm not sure how the rest of the community would react to that, though.

I'd be fine with that too. Although people have said in the past that having such an active thread in Individual Comics can be annoying, seeing the "unread posts" symbol all the time. I wouldn't want to impose the same annoyance on a different section, although maybe the General section is more active and therefore it would be less of a problem?

Funny, this thread's gone from being about the Madness to just being about the OTT...
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Re: Madness discussion

Postby Belial » Wed Apr 02, 2014 10:45 pm UTC

I mean, realistically, moving the time thread would crash the forums.

Remember that outage we had in the middle of mod madness this saturday? Yeah, we assumed that someone had tried. Still not sure what actually caused it.
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Re: Madness discussion

Postby gmalivuk » Wed Apr 02, 2014 10:47 pm UTC

yappobiscuits wrote:Funny, this thread's gone from being about the Madness to just being about the OTT...
It was always about the OTT, since some OTTers were the ones who put up the biggest stink about Mad antics this year and led to this thread being created in the first place.
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Re: Madness discussion

Postby PinkShinyRose » Wed Apr 02, 2014 11:02 pm UTC

Belial wrote:I mean, realistically, moving the time thread would crash the forums.

Someone mentioned this before (in the context of moving it to the mods forum during the furious doodling). Does it really take more than altering one single database value? I'm not really into IT stuff, but I would expect this to be like moving something within a file-system where only the pointer changes. It seems interesting somehow, although I don't know why.

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Re: Madness discussion

Postby Azrael » Wed Apr 02, 2014 11:03 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:
yappobiscuits wrote:Funny, this thread's gone from being about the Madness to just being about the OTT...
It was always about the OTT, since some OTTers were the ones who put up the biggest stink about Mad antics this year and led to this thread being created in the first place.

I have to agree with Greg on that. After six years of Madness, we've had the discussions and know the opinions. This thread was to hear out those who had an issue with the Time thread getting locked. If that action hadn't occurred? We wouldn't be having this discussion -- or at least a much different one and shorter one.

Although sure, it is a bit eyebrow raising to get from an accusation regarding the validity of Madness to Adam H's point in only four pages.

PinkShinyRose wrote:
Belial wrote:I mean, realistically, moving the time thread would crash the forums.

Someone mentioned this before (in the context of moving it to the mods forum during the furious doodling). Does it really take more than altering one single database value? I'm not really into IT stuff, but I would expect this to be like moving something within a file-system where only the pointer changes. It seems interesting somehow, although I don't know why.

Not knowing enough about the back end to speculate, all I can do is confirm that moving large threads breaks the forum for hours on end. I don't even remember the thread or length in question, but we certainly have relevant experimental data.

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Re: Madness discussion

Postby ggh » Wed Apr 02, 2014 11:06 pm UTC

Azrael wrote:BTW: If you need scale of how much spam we get, there are 340,000 zero post registered users. Something like 99.9% of them registered to post spam and were disapproved manually by a moderator.


I was going to stay quiet, but I gotta ask: mobteeseboose?

Belial wrote:So a bit of rambling by way of a forum sociology/history lesson if anyone cares: historically, the community at large has pretty much ignored Individual Comic Threads, because it was filled with what I at one point termed "tumbleweeds". Posters who just blow in to say one or two things and then are never seen or heard from again. It was more like the comments section on a news article than an actual forum. The mods occasionally popped in to deal with reports or maybe do some yelling-at-assholes if randy posted a particularly controversial comic (see: any comic about MRAs or PUAs), but it was considered like...the front yard of the forum.



I'd enjoy knowing more about this place in general. When I realized there was so much more than the ICT, it made me wonder where it came from. I don't see any ads, and it must take heaps of resources to support. I admit I'm really a noob all around - I haven't participated in forums anywhere, so the whole culture is new to me. I'm just a tumbleweed that got stuck in the barbed wire of Time.


Sciscitor - you know I'm a big fan, but I thought it was funny as hell to see you banned like that. I hope you'll see it that way too after a while.


And, if I should apologize for the zoo pics, I do.
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Re: Madness discussion

Postby yappobiscuits » Wed Apr 02, 2014 11:08 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:
yappobiscuits wrote:Funny, this thread's gone from being about the Madness to just being about the OTT...
It was always about the OTT, since some OTTers were the ones who put up the biggest stink about Mad antics this year and led to this thread being created in the first place.

Well, this thread was created by SBN who has her own views on the madness entirely seperate to the OTT. But yes, I suppose this thread probably wouldn't have existed had it not been for the OTT incident (ninja'd by Azrael). But anyway, my observation there was really just that it was starting to become no longer about the madness at all, but just the OTT. Just a passing comment, that's all.
PinkShinyRose wrote:
Belial wrote:I mean, realistically, moving the time thread would crash the forums.

Someone mentioned this before (in the context of moving it to the mods forum during the furious doodling). Does it really take more than altering one single database value? I'm not really into IT stuff, but I would expect this to be like moving something within a file-system where only the pointer changes. It seems interesting somehow, although I don't know why.

Yeah I would've thought that myself too, but I'm also not much of an IT person, so... *shrugs*
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Re: Madness discussion

Postby Belial » Wed Apr 02, 2014 11:08 pm UTC

PinkShinyRose wrote:
Belial wrote:I mean, realistically, moving the time thread would crash the forums.

Someone mentioned this before (in the context of moving it to the mods forum during the furious doodling). Does it really take more than altering one single database value? I'm not really into IT stuff, but I would expect this to be like moving something within a file-system where only the pointer changes. It seems interesting somehow, although I don't know why.


I honestly don't know how phpbb handles moving threads, but it must actually copy them to a new location. During the first madness I tried to move a several thousand page thread from faid to the boneyard, and it hung the forum for about an hour
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Re: Madness discussion

Postby Azrael » Wed Apr 02, 2014 11:11 pm UTC

ggh wrote:
Azrael wrote:BTW: If you need scale of how much spam we get, there are 340,000 zero post registered users. Something like 99.9% of them registered to post spam and were disapproved manually by a moderator.


I was going to stay quiet, but I gotta ask: mobteeseboose?


Eh?

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Re: Madness discussion

Postby Belial » Wed Apr 02, 2014 11:11 pm UTC

ggh wrote:And, if I should apologize for the zoo pics, I do.


Nah. Like I said, if there was a time for us to care about that, we have long since missed it.
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Re: Madness discussion

Postby yappobiscuits » Wed Apr 02, 2014 11:13 pm UTC

Azrael wrote:Eh?

Mobteeseboose was a user who used to always appear online in ICT, but had no posts. They became something of an in-joke.
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Re: Madness discussion

Postby Azrael » Wed Apr 02, 2014 11:15 pm UTC

When I posted earlier this evening, I looked at the users browsing the forum and all nine of them had the trademark number/letter spew names of spammers. It's a thing.

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Re: Madness discussion

Postby gmalivuk » Wed Apr 02, 2014 11:16 pm UTC

PinkShinyRose wrote:
Belial wrote:I mean, realistically, moving the time thread would crash the forums.

Someone mentioned this before (in the context of moving it to the mods forum during the furious doodling). Does it really take more than altering one single database value? I'm not really into IT stuff, but I would expect this to be like moving something within a file-system where only the pointer changes. It seems interesting somehow, although I don't know why.
phpBB is nothing if not stupid.

I suspect what happens is something like every single post needs to have its database entry changed to point to the correct parent forum, rather than simply having that happen with the thread as a whole and then just have every post point to the thread it's in.

yappobiscuits wrote:Well, this thread was created by SBN who has her own views on the madness entirely seperate to the OTT.
I find it hard to believe those views are entirely separate to the OTT. All of her posts outside of the OTT happened after the OTT was locked and are about whether Madness is bullying, a discussion which started because the OTT was locked.
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Re: Madness discussion

Postby Azrael » Wed Apr 02, 2014 11:21 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:
yappobiscuits wrote:Well, this thread was created by SBN who has her own views on the madness entirely seperate to the OTT.
I find it hard to believe those views are entirely separate to the OTT. All of her posts outside of the OTT happened after the OTT was locked and are about whether Madness is bullying, a discussion which started because the OTT was locked.


Let's give her credit where credit is due. I expected this to be much more of a bloodbath.

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Re: Madness discussion

Postby gmalivuk » Wed Apr 02, 2014 11:24 pm UTC

Well yes, it has been a surprisingly okay discussion.
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Re: Madness discussion

Postby Zarq » Wed Apr 02, 2014 11:25 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:
PinkShinyRose wrote:
Belial wrote:I mean, realistically, moving the time thread would crash the forums.

Someone mentioned this before (in the context of moving it to the mods forum during the furious doodling). Does it really take more than altering one single database value? I'm not really into IT stuff, but I would expect this to be like moving something within a file-system where only the pointer changes. It seems interesting somehow, although I don't know why.
phpBB is nothing if not stupid.

I suspect what happens is something like every single post needs to have its database entry changed to point to the correct parent forum, rather than simply having that happen with the thread as a whole and then just have every post point to the thread it's in.


I'd guess it's a non-normalized database table for the sake of making lookup more efficient, at the cost of an increased cost for modifications (such as moving).

As for the moving of the Time thread, there's always the option of making a new one, closing the old one, and putting links to the other at the beginning/end of the new/old thread ...
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Re: Madness discussion

Postby ChronosDragon » Wed Apr 02, 2014 11:30 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:
PinkShinyRose wrote:
Belial wrote:I mean, realistically, moving the time thread would crash the forums.

Someone mentioned this before (in the context of moving it to the mods forum during the furious doodling). Does it really take more than altering one single database value? I'm not really into IT stuff, but I would expect this to be like moving something within a file-system where only the pointer changes. It seems interesting somehow, although I don't know why.
phpBB is nothing if not stupid.

I suspect what happens is something like every single post needs to have its database entry changed to point to the correct parent forum, rather than simply having that happen with the thread as a whole and then just have every post point to the thread it's in.


This is precisely the case, I believe.

If I recall correctly from hosting my own phpbb forums and trying to interface with it (back before I gave up on PHP entirely), posts keep track of what thread they're in, as well as what forum they're in, by id. For large threads, this means that each post needs to have its thread/forum updated when moved. The slowness is probably a result of a few factors, notably (assuming you're using MySQL like 95% of PHP users) 1) PHP/MySQL being largely synchronous, 2) MySQL being terribly slow with large datasets, and 3) phpBB's table structures being inefficiently organized.

I'm no expert on these things, but that's my take on it, anyway.

That being said, announced downtime is quite common on many web sites. It's the unannounced downtime that is annoying.
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Re: Madness discussion

Postby PhoenixEnigma » Wed Apr 02, 2014 11:34 pm UTC

I don't normally add my two cents* to something like this, but as someone who spends way to much time on the fora, I think it's worth adding my voice to the "madness is wonderful" crowd. The mods here do, frankly, a fantastic job, and while I wouldn't begrudge them having a little fun on that basis alone, as a user I think it's a good idea that is a lot of fun to take part in, and is a part of what makes the fora not just another random site on the internet but someplace rather more interesting and special. It's something I look forward to, and would be very sad to see go. This year's dialect filtering was exceptional (thanks, Angua!), and the testing leading up to the actual madness also helped build some excitement and was a very nice touch, even if not intentional.

I also think that the Time thread locking somewhat overshadowed some of the Madness and in some ways detracted from it, which is a shame. Part of me thinks it would have been more enjoyable if the mods had done as they had in the past and handed out tempbans like candy to complainers (and I'm rather surprised some people's permission sets aren't still bruised), but in not doing so I think the idea of getting OTTers and forumites to mingle a little more has actually been achieved. Some people from there have been posting other places, and I at least have been glancing there more often (though it's still very hard to follow - the barrier for entry, as it were, appears to be quite high). Some OTTers seem like pretty hoopy froods. Some have already made it on my foe list. But there's more individuals and less "those odd people over there", which is probably a win.

I'd also agree with Red Hal in asking for LSD. I could still find threads where they were 6 hours ago with the same names, and I wasn't ballgagged even once this year! What is life without drugs and ballgags?

Belial wrote:I mean, realistically, moving the time thread would crash the forums.
This is a great shame, as moving the Time thread into FaiD could have been hilarious.

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Re: Madness discussion

Postby BlitzGirl » Wed Apr 02, 2014 11:39 pm UTC

Zarq wrote:As for the moving of the Time thread, there's always the option of making a new one, closing the old one, and putting links to the other at the beginning/end of the new/old thread ...

I'd be opposed to this simply because we use the thread itself as a living community, for example editing past posts to send messages to people who have recently started reading the thread from the beginning. But I wouldn't feel slighted if the mods chose to create a new "1190: Time" thread purely for discussion of the comic, like all the rest of the ICT threads. I don't know how well it would fare in terms of activity (can't recall the last time I saw "Click and Drag" reemerge on the first page of ICT, for example). It seems like that forum's threads flourish for a week or two when the comic is new, then quickly peter off - "tumbleweeds," like Belial said.

Probably one of the reasons that the OTT slipped past the rules is because the comic ran for months, so there was ample comic discussion and time for everybody who frequented the thread to get to know each other, developing a single-thread community entirely by accident.
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Re: Madness discussion

Postby yappobiscuits » Wed Apr 02, 2014 11:41 pm UTC

Azrael wrote:Let's give her credit where credit is due. I expected this to be much more of a bloodbath.

I dunno, the worst case scenario I was expecting was more that it'd just get closed out of not wishing to discuss the issue further, so I was pleasantly surprised in that sense. If it was left open, I was expecting (and was proven right) that it'd really be just a discussion between mods and OTTers, so I wasn't expecting a flame war. Mods aren't gonna flame, that's one of the things they're here to prevent :P. And OTTers tend to be, for the most part, very good at having flame-free discussions and listening/understanding. So... this pretty much went as expected, for me.
Zarq wrote:As for the moving of the Time thread, there's always the option of making a new one, closing the old one, and putting links to the other at the beginning/end of the new/old thread ...

Hmm, OTTers do like digging stuff up from the past though. Is it still possible to quote and edit stuff from a closed thread? (Sorta ninja'd by BlitzGirl)
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Re: Madness discussion

Postby ConMan » Wed Apr 02, 2014 11:43 pm UTC

PinkShinyRose wrote:
Belial wrote:I mean, realistically, moving the time thread would crash the forums.

Someone mentioned this before (in the context of moving it to the mods forum during the furious doodling). Does it really take more than altering one single database value? I'm not really into IT stuff, but I would expect this to be like moving something within a file-system where only the pointer changes. It seems interesting somehow, although I don't know why.

Theoretically, yes. Unfortunately phpBB is a horrible mess, especially when many phpBB forums have a number of more or less custom add-ons applied that often rely on the messiness to do their thing. So in general, the answer to the question "shouldn't it be easy to do this?" is usually "Yes, assuming you're not using phpBB".
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Re: Madness discussion

Postby Zarq » Wed Apr 02, 2014 11:49 pm UTC

yappobiscuits wrote:
Azrael wrote:Let's give her credit where credit is due. I expected this to be much more of a bloodbath.

I dunno, the worst case scenario I was expecting was more that it'd just get closed out of not wishing to discuss the issue further, so I was pleasantly surprised in that sense. If it was left open, I was expecting (and was proven right) that it'd really be just a discussion between mods and OTTers, so I wasn't expecting a flame war. Mods aren't gonna flame, that's one of the things they're here to prevent :P. And OTTers tend to be, for the most part, very good at having flame-free discussions and listening/understanding. So... this pretty much went as expected, for me.
Zarq wrote:As for the moving of the Time thread, there's always the option of making a new one, closing the old one, and putting links to the other at the beginning/end of the new/old thread ...

Hmm, OTTers do like digging stuff up from the past though. Is it still possible to quote and edit stuff from a closed thread? (Sorta ninja'd by BlitzGirl)



Editing, yes apparently not. Quoting, yes, through a detour.
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Re: Madness discussion

Postby yappobiscuits » Wed Apr 02, 2014 11:51 pm UTC

PhoenixEnigma wrote:Some OTTers seem like pretty hoopy froods. Some have already made it on my foe list.

Interesting, I'm of course intrigued as to whom, but of course you're not obliged to tell. :P

Yeah, let's not go there.

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Zarq wrote:Editing, yes. Quoting, yes, through a detour.

Ah, good. (Edit for your edit: Oh....)
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Re: Madness discussion

Postby Red Hal » Thu Apr 03, 2014 12:03 am UTC

Wow, this thread moved on! Just finished blitzing, and have nothing useful to add except that in terms of the hunger games idea I was thinking of something along the lines of mafia ...

Edit: or perhaps internet pass the parcel.
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Re: Madness discussion

Postby Azrael » Thu Apr 03, 2014 12:07 am UTC

You need to get working on your Effie up-do right now if it's going to be ready in time.

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Re: Madness discussion

Postby apricity » Thu Apr 03, 2014 12:48 am UTC

mrob27 wrote:I wonder sometimes if the Time thread folks should ask for their thread to be [safespace]. The discussion of the principle that [ Only I can judge if something is hurting me ] has come up lots of times in that thread over the past year.
This was back from the first page, but I just realized nobody ever spoke to it, and I wanted to make sure it got addressed. I think it was a valid question if you don't yet know what a Safespace is for. A Safespace is a thread for people who identify with certain oppressed groups. We have them for LGBTIQQA people, people of color, women, people with mental illness, people with disabilities. They are heavily moderated. It wouldn't work as a meta-tag; we couldn't just put a Safespace tag on a thread and say anyone who participates in this thread gets a Safespace, because there's no way to see what does and doesn't make it an unSafe space. People not part of the thread wouldn't know without just lurking for a really really long time what is and isn't safe to say in that thread, and there would be no clear lines between who is and isn't part of it or who does and does not have privilege within it.

Does that make sense? I hope it helped clarify.


Edit because I like answering questions and wanted to answer the one in the OP:

Why did you become a moderator? What's it like? Is it really stressful? The Madness is often said to be stress relief for the moderators, why is that necessary?
I became a mod because almost 7 years ago, I had this mythical thing called free time. Back then there was no post-approval so spam showed up all the time and it annoyed me so I reported it a lot. I also wanted to be one of the cool kids and being a mod was a cool kid thing to do. So when they asked me if I wanted to be a mod because I reported all the spam anyway, I said yes. It wasn't stressful back then, I just deleted spam mostly. Eventually I started to actually moderate discussions, which was more challenging because you have to read through and figure out who's right and wrong and what actions to take and so forth. Then I started moderating Safespace threads, which is a whooole different level of stressful because the situations are sensitive and are more likely to be tied up in real emotional harm for people. I did that for a while, and then I recently gave up my mod duties because Real Life took over and I have enough conflicts to resolve during the day thankyouverymuch. I really do see Madness as a reward for the work I've done to try and build up the culture on these fora. It's nice to let loose and totally abuse my power for a little while when I feel like I have to be the most sensible one in the thread most other times.
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Re: Madness discussion

Postby azule » Thu Apr 03, 2014 1:01 am UTC

I've only read the first out of who knows how many pages (this is a dense discussion). Sorry for intruding with my rest of the thread blinders on. Will ketchup.

Azrael wrote:It's worth noting that in years past, we've asked to have Dear SB exempted on the whole and the request was declined because (more or less) phpBB don't work that way.
It's a very reassuring thing to hear. Maybe there's a possibility that there could be an untouchable thread within Dear SB, so that, while you can't save every thread, people can go there as refuge.

But, I worry to hear that there's more credence in what people are talking about in this one place as opposed to another. We in the OTT have had more than one incident that's been shared with others, with the hope that we take it serious and are kind. One was of a robbery at gunpoint. I mean, is that not serious enough? And, the Time thread helped that person. I think that may be true of more than those two places. I know you can't then exempt every thread because of some possibility of this being true, but...please realize there's more to this than what's on the surface (fun and folly).

SecondTalon wrote:So, yeah, was locking the time thread a bad idea? Apparently. I was wanting the Time users to spread out and start talking elsewhere so everyone else (including the Timers) could play "Is it Timish or is it Madness?" and spread absurdity far and wide.
I assumed the idea might have been yours. I appreciate you wanted to mess with us (because you appear to be one of us). The stunt might have actually worked if you had posted the closing post yourself. I don't know how well, but personally, I wouldn't have felt so off/annoyed/whateveritwas. Maybe. It would have been more likely. Last year it was neat seeing some filters specifically about OTTers. This year, after the incident, it didn't feel so joyous (even if your intent had been the same as last year).

Belial wrote:When we recruit mods for specific forum areas we do it based on the fact that that person is already participating in that area. <snip/> Very few of the moderator staff participate there regularly (except lately, when everything got unsettled) and we don't draw a lot of enjoyment from it.
Do we have a mod that does? Or are you saying we need more (than one)? Either way, it sounds like we need a mod who is also an OTTer. I'm not applying. Does it make sense to do that?

Red Hal wrote:set up a "hunger games" with two posters drawn at random from each forum who had to compete for a custom title, with the losers being banned for a week to simulate death
Well, now that's an idea.



These below are from earlier in the week, but they belong here. Take it with a grain of salt if this isn't totally relavant. I added one note.

gmalivuk wrote:Seeing as y'all called us bullies for last year's Madness, which eventually had no effect whatsoever on new Time posts and never involved locking the thread, I'mma go ahead and not be particularly bothered by your analysis of this year's Madness as bullying.
Please do. Just as much as you xuys use the Madness to "vent", we also may need to vent. Thanks for letting us. It works both ways or maybe it would be bullying.

In terms of the potential for it to happen again, that counts. Harm and fear of harm (also called threats) count. Maybe a promise of not locking the thread next yip will allow us to say all is well. It wasn't that it was locked, it was that it could have stayed that way. Not likely, sure, with the knowledge of what was happening at the time, but still a worry.

But, actually, there was a negative impact last yip. Some left forever. That's not inconsequential. You may not want them around, but the very basis of communication is to make sure we know what's going on, and with the current format of the phpbb implementation it's still likely that people won't see your warnings and with the filters won't know what warnings to be heeding. So, please, take it seriously.

Viglen wrote:
deh be an announcement at de top ah every forum a say dis be happening.


Do you mean de one about "Furious Doodlings"? I had a look at it an' had no idea wa it was talking about, an' when I realised I'd have to translate it into English myself, I gave up pon it.
This is an incredibly true statement. I really think next Madness, that y'all need to exempt the Announcement Thread. It's unfair to those who missed the announcement in plain English, regardless of our proficiency in English, but especially if one is not. (This happened last year with myself, where I was told to read the announcement, but could not.)
Note: I realize, after reading some of this thread that you're going to have trouble implementing that. Well, actually, if you don't mind: The first post of your next madness announcement thread, it should contain unfilterable U+200D's. Because it really is important for people to have a chance to read it, unfiltered. Thanks.
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Re: Madness discussion

Postby yappobiscuits » Thu Apr 03, 2014 1:06 am UTC

lanicita wrote:
mrob27 wrote:I wonder sometimes if the Time thread folks should ask for their thread to be [safespace]. The discussion of the principle that [ Only I can judge if something is hurting me ] has come up lots of times in that thread over the past year.
This was back from the first page, but I just realized nobody ever spoke to it, and I wanted to make sure it got addressed. I think it was a valid question if you don't yet know what a Safespace is for. A Safespace is a thread for people who identify with certain oppressed groups. We have them for LGBTIQQA people, people of color, women, people with mental illness, people with disabilities. They are heavily moderated. It wouldn't work as a meta-tag; we couldn't just put a Safespace tag on a thread and say anyone who participates in this thread gets a Safespace, because there's no way to see what does and doesn't make it an unSafe space. People not part of the thread wouldn't know without just lurking for a really really long time what is and isn't safe to say in that thread, and there would be no clear lines between who is and isn't part of it or who does and does not have privilege within it.

Does that make sense? I hope it helped clarify.

Yeah, if that's the case I don't think it'd appropriate for the Time thread to be a safespace. It may be a very caring community that often helps people with their problems when they have them, but it's still very much a recreational thread and I don't think it'd be right to put it in the same category with threads for groups who are genuinely oppressed and have genuine problems just because we're... sensitive or whatever.
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Re: Madness discussion

Postby Azrael » Thu Apr 03, 2014 1:27 am UTC

azule wrote:
Belial wrote:When we recruit mods for specific forum areas we do it based on the fact that that person is already participating in that area. <snip/> Very few of the moderator staff participate there regularly (except lately, when everything got unsettled) and we don't draw a lot of enjoyment from it.
Do we have a mod that does? Or are you saying we need more (than one)? Either way, it sounds like we need a mod who is also an OTTer. I'm not applying. Does it make sense to do that?


Look, I'm going to cut this one very, very short: We aren't going to have new mod discussions in public. Period.

azule wrote:Maybe a promise of not locking the thread next yip will allow us to say all is well.

Nor will we ever promise to exempt a particular thread from locking. That'd be like promising never to give a specific student a detention.

That being said, my purple text on page one and the rest of the sentiments expressed throughout this thread by the entire staff ought to assuage any reasonable concerns.

azule wrote: I really think next Madness, that y'all need to exempt the Announcement Thread.

Not likely, but we will drop it as an image file. Which was done last year, and I edited one in at some point early Sunday this year. The thread itself will remain Maddening.

azule wrote:But, I worry to hear that there's more credence in what people are talking about in this one place [Dear SB] as opposed to another. We in the OTT have had more than one incident that's been shared with others, with the hope that we take it serious and are kind.
And this is where you need to read the rest of the thread -- this last page and a half specifically. Dear SB is by default a Safespace, and gets a whole heaping pile of extra consideration and protection because of it. The Time Thread is not one, nor will it be. Any safespace-worthy discussion that does take place in the Time thread is, by the standard rules of engagement, entirely off topic. But we let it ride because it's the reasonable thing to do at this point.

Because this cycle of rehashing is frustrating and guaranteed to be incomplete, I'm going to go put a note on the first post.

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Re: Madness discussion

Postby SecondTalon » Thu Apr 03, 2014 1:54 am UTC

rvloon wrote:... as non-native speaker
So, that Location part of your profile? It's.. actually pretty helpful. Without it, the default assumption is that the poster is a native English speaker. I'm not saying it's a requirement - if you don't want to share, or if you want to use it for a joke or if you want it blank, that's your call. I am saying that it can be helpful when you're not a native speaker, as it allows for native speakers to realize you may not be getting some idiom correct or that you aren't using quite the right words as the concept doesn't translate well or the way you think it does. Just throwing that out there.
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General. Possibly Fictional Science. But I'd say General.
azule wrote:
SecondTalon wrote:So, yeah, was locking the time thread a bad idea? Apparently. I was wanting the Time users to spread out and start talking elsewhere so everyone else (including the Timers) could play "Is it Timish or is it Madness?" and spread absurdity far and wide.
I assumed the idea might have been yours. I appreciate you wanted to mess with us (because you appear to be one of us). The stunt might have actually worked if you had posted the closing post yourself. I don't know how well, but personally, I wouldn't have felt so off/annoyed/whateveritwas. Maybe. It would have been more likely. Last year it was neat seeing some filters specifically about OTTers. This year, after the incident, it didn't feel so joyous (even if your intent had been the same as last year).

Hindsight, all that.

I wouldn't consider myself one of the Timers. I've stuck my head in there a few times, either to make jokes or to try and draw people out to the forum at large. Most attempts have fallen flat and not worked as intended.

Whoever, Talon's way too lazy to look up wrote:Why did you become a moderator? What's it like? Is it really stressful? The Madness is often said to be stress relief for the moderators, why is that necessary?
They asked, I said sure, bam.

It's exactly like being a regular user, except you have a nagging sense of RESPONSIBILITY and the notion that YOU SHOULD NOT CALL THAT PERSON A BOOGERFACE with a side of YOU CAN MAKE PEOPLE JUST GO AWAY IF YOU WANTED MUAH HAH HAH HAH HAH except OH WAIT THEN YOU CAN'T BE A MOD ANYMORE BECAUSE SOMEONE WILL NOTICE reminding you to not do that.

At any rate, do I enjoy it? Sure. Is it stressful? It's not as stressful as my job, sure. But it's more stressful than taking care of my cats. It's.. kinda it's own thing? While I can't speak for the other mods, I do my best to make sure that I'm being completely fair, not letting my own feelings cloud any of my judgements, and following the rules of the forum. Usually in that order. There's several posters I don't care for. I'd be perfectly content if they just stopped posting. But I'm not going to ban them, not going to harass them, and I'm going to keep their best interests as a user in mind. It's one of the reasons I usually take a couple of hours or more before making a Big Important Decision about temp-locking a thread or temp-banning a user (or completely throwing them out of High Culture, since I do still primarily work in that area). It's the balance between a user being able to enjoy the forum as they see fit (while following the rules) while at the same time not allowing their enjoyment negatively affect other user's enjoyment.

At any rate, I like to give users who are acting up rope. And I like to make it obvious that I'm handing them rope and letting them do with it as they will. That some users like to tie a hangman's noose, tie it to the gallows, put their head in the loop and start screaming at me to pull the lever already is... actually a failure on my part. I'll still pull the lever and not think twice about it, sure - but apparently my instructions of "Stop tying the rope like that" and "Don't put your head in there" fell on deaf ears.

Others understand what it is I'm doing and check themselves.

(Oh, I also like to be as open about what I'm doing and my motivations thereof as is relevant to the situation at hand. I don't much care for Mods banning, moving and removing content without notification... but you also don't need to know that I totally just blocked 4 spam attempts.)

The Internet is a huge place, and this is but one tiny corner, and this tiny corner has (pretty lax) rules. I do not see it being an unfair burden to keep to those rules in exchange for use of the place.

At any rate, the reason I like Mod Madness - especially after turning Orange - is... every time I go into the Mod Panel I'm confronted with a dazzling array of toys. We could put it in Video Game or Real World terms if you'd like - it's a big giant armory full of big giant guns. And most of the time I'm there for a pea shooter. Occasionally I need a rifle. But I always know the tools are there.

So once a year, getting the ability to fire off the minigun, lug a grenade launcher around and, when I'm tired of all that, firing the Howitzer until that gets boring..... that's an incredibly fun thing to do.

The idea on my end is to make sure the explosions and wreckage (all of which is cleared in a few minutes by philip's magic scripts[I don't code. Coding is magic as far as I'm concerned]) produce amusement for everyone else, even if someone gets hit. It's also amusing for me to run around on the firing range until another Mod takes a shot at me too. Because - again - I know that in a few days it'll all be back to normal, no permanent damage done.

Could we get by without it ever happening again? Easily.

Would we miss it? Would some of the users miss it? Undoubtedly.

Is it just a neat little weird thing we do? Yep.

Is asking questions of yourself for yourself to answer a ridiculous way to convey information? Shut up.
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Re: Madness discussion

Postby SBN » Thu Apr 03, 2014 1:57 am UTC

I think part of why this is just Mods and folks from Time, is that I posted about it in the Time thread, but since, as you've noticed I barely post outside of it, I wasn't about to go posting announcements anywhere else. I certainly welcome other views, and I do appreciate this discussion. (By all means, go recruit your friends.)

I do have one other thing I want to say. For the moment, please just grant me that I believed there was bullying going on and leave it at that. Now, here's the thing. It wasn't exactly that I felt bullied, but that I was watching bullying happen. If it was just a game I didn't enjoy, then sure I can stay away. If I'm personally being bullied, then sure, I can decide to leave to protect myself, since, as we've established, it's just a forum. (It is more than just the one thread, I may not post elsewhere, but I do read some of the other Comic/What-if pages.) But, I can't just say nothing if I see bullying happen. And, especially not if the perceived bully is an authority. So to be told simply, "complaining isn't allowed" well, now that felt like even more bullying. So, while I get that you don't want everyone saying, "hey, every time I type mouse it posts as elephant, make it stop" I do feel that it's important that there be an open channel for "this has crossed the line." Preferably one unaffected by filters. I seem to have enough trouble being understood without filters. (The dialect made me really uncomfortable, I understand it wasn't meant to, but still, it wasn't something I was confident wouldn't cause hurt.)
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Re: Madness discussion

Postby SecondTalon » Thu Apr 03, 2014 2:04 am UTC

azule wrote:
Azrael wrote:It's worth noting that in years past, we've asked to have Dear SB exempted on the whole and the request was declined because (more or less) phpBB don't work that way.
But, I worry to hear that there's more credence in what people are talking about in this one place as opposed to another. We in the OTT have had more than one incident that's been shared with others, with the hope that we take it serious and are kind. One was of a robbery at gunpoint. I mean, is that not serious enough? And, the Time thread helped that person. I think that may be true of more than those two places. I know you can't then exempt every thread because of some possibility of this being true, but...please realize there's more to this than what's on the surface (fun and folly).


Alright, so.. going back to how some people in the Time Thread don't like to leave it - we're sorry that's the case, but that's also not our fault. As Az basically said, DearSB was set up so as to give people a safe, non-indexable way of sharing information like that. I think (but might be mistaken) that DearSB is exempt from the approval requirement, meaning brand new users can post (I say that because I cannot recall ever seeing a post for approval in there, but have cleaned up some spam) specifically so users can freely sockpuppet and get help via the community support system. The Time Thread is not, meaning everything in there gets crawled by bots and might be on Archive.org or wherever.

That you have users using a thread for a purpose in an area not intended for that purpose for that while is.. not our fault. And it's something that is far, far too late in the game to fix.
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Re: Madness discussion

Postby Azrael » Thu Apr 03, 2014 2:07 am UTC

SBN wrote:So, while I get that you don't want everyone saying, "hey, every time I type mouse it posts as elephant, make it stop" I do feel that it's important that there be an open channel for "this has crossed the line." Preferably one unaffected by filters. I seem to have enough trouble being understood without filters. (The dialect made me really uncomfortable, I understand it wasn't meant to, but still, it wasn't something I was confident wouldn't cause hurt.)

It seems entirely reasonable for us to put a "Real and Actual Mod Madness Problems" thread in SFI next year, and treat it the way we treat typical SFI threads -- i.e. no idle chit chat and the whingy BS will get summarily deleted. However, it will be filtered. I'm running out of ways to express this simple truth sans frustration.

But! There are a slew of forum tools that are always available to users with Real and Actual Problems of any nature -- reporting posts (filter free) and PMing moderators (not filter free, but hey, we wrote them so we'll take the time to decode them).

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Re: Madness discussion

Postby SecondTalon » Thu Apr 03, 2014 2:08 am UTC

As is the Location field of a user's profile.

Sadly.
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Re: Madness discussion

Postby PhoenixEnigma » Thu Apr 03, 2014 2:10 am UTC

azule wrote:This is an incredibly true statement. I really think next Madness, that y'all need to exempt the Announcement Thread. It's unfair to those who missed the announcement in plain English, regardless of our proficiency in English, but especially if one is not. (This happened last year with myself, where I was told to read the announcement, but could not.)
Note: I realize, after reading some of this thread that you're going to have trouble implementing that. Well, actually, if you don't mind: The first post of your next madness announcement thread, it should contain unfilterable U+200D's. Because it really is important for people to have a chance to read it, unfiltered. Thanks.
The very first thing in the very first post of the announcement thread is the announcement itself as an image, done as an attachment, so that it remains untouched by the filters. I suppose you could argue that the following discussion wasn't very readable, but there wasn't anything of particular explanatory value on the first page anyways. Likewise, it's possible there's a discussion to be had about the content of the announcement itself, but saying the announcement itself wasn't available due to filtering is rather disingenuous.
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